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 So let's talk about crossrides!

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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 15:12

OK, first off there is actually quite a lot of variation in the Dimensional Robo build and also, you do realise that after a unit's power goes over a certain number, is is basically unguarded unless you want to dump 3 10k shields just to hit 2-pass? That's what Great Daiyusha does. D-Police are all about just smashing the gigantic numbers and the fact that he then swings for 2 crit without Triggers puts a lot of pressure on the defending player. THAT'S how they make their advantage, by hitting so hard you either have to take the damage, making a lucky Crit a lot more lethal or guarding that giant power and losing a lot more cards to do it. Out of the 3" advantage zones" (damage, hand and field) D-Police have never been known to even remotely touch upon field. They just hit hard and fast. Drawing or retiring is kind of useless when you're dead and out of the game, isn't it?

The fact that D-Police can power up their units even more makes Diayusha probably the crossride that hits for the biggest numbers. Also, let's not forget that we'll have one unit before we get Great Diayusha: Commander Laurel, which should be in every D-Police build ever. Daiyusha is hitting at 15k and 2 crit base, due to his skills, already an extra stage before any other D-Police skills give him robo-roids or boosts or triggers.

Your Great Diayusha hits, being souped up of course means it hits for 2 crit, and you use Laurel's skill and attack again. Now, if they didn't guard the 1st time, chances are they aren't guarding now. But we can make that more reliable anyway, because we can use our skills to soup our crossride up so that it's power is huge, entering "null-or-no-guard" territory. OK, so now it stands. The extra power is still there, of course so not being able to boost this 2nd attack isn't that bad, we compensate our boosting through the extra power we've gained. Great Diayusha stands and attacks again, STILL at 2 crit naturally. If you didn't get any Triggers at all, then you've still managed to pull them straight from Early Game-No Damage to Late Game. And of course, one of those Dimensional Robo's is a crit that can pull itself from the soul and get Great Daiyusha an extra 3k power to boot which you can easily get in. Seeing as that comes with a critical compounded to it, you've essentially managed to re-use that critical trigger, and if using that skill would lose your Soul requirement, there's always Daidragon (another Robo) or Cosmo Beak and that their starter is actually great for the archetype, given you use it smartly.

And the chances are, you'll check into at least one trigger within 4 drive checks. (If you don't you've been highly unlucky) blasting that power to even higher. If it's a draw, cool, free card. Heal; you've just made that damage gap even bigger and crit?! Well, that means Diayusha is now either putting you on one away from death or killing you outright.

Imagine that. You've got your Great Diayusha active, it hits. Laurel's skill, blah blah... but this time, you managed to get a critical trigger on your first drive. That 3 damage, twice. Do the math and see what that damage total comes to. That's right, Diayusha just made your opponent go from no damage at all to DEATH.

Why the hell you would use Great Daiyusha outside of a Dimensional Robo build is nothing short of stupidity, so that point is essentially moot anyway.

In fact, analysing whether a D-Police card is good is a lot harder because there is always Laurel. Laurel WILL be in a D-Police deck and the fact that it nets you 4 cards even with a vanilla VG is fucking wackjob. I'd happily go for 2 damage if it means I'm actually doing 4 drive checks, because there is always Stands and Crits. Laurel should always be in the back of your mind when thinking about D-Police. There's a reason that dude is the commander.


Last edited by AstoXx on 2012-11-02, 15:30; edited 3 times in total
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Dark5ide

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 15:19

Well we start running into slippery slopes here.

If crossrides were only available to clans that were way too weak (D Police, Tachikazi, MAYBE Narakumi so that they can have something to make them a touch more interesting than a crappy Kagero clone), then it would be fine...at first.

But what if, in the future, those clans become better? Then we fall into the same trap: either everyone plays the deck with cross-rides, or you play something against it.

Vanguard can quickly become wars of attrition, and cross-rides will win those every time.
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Lockon Stratos

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 16:34

Dark5ide wrote:
Well we start running into slippery slopes here.

If crossrides were only available to clans that were way too weak (D Police, Tachikazi, MAYBE Narakumi so that they can have something to make them a touch more interesting than a crappy Kagero clone), then it would be fine...at first.

But what if, in the future, those clans become better? Then we fall into the same trap: either everyone plays the deck with cross-rides, or you play something against it.

Vanguard can quickly become wars of attrition, and cross-rides will win those every time.

Ok, I need to clarify one of my points, as I've been misunderstood. I do not want Crossrides given too "weak" clans, but if we must have them, I'd prefer them to be given to clans that won't push that 13k into insanity. That is, don't give them to clans that have no problem with levering card advantage, such as Kagero or the Paladins, which is the mistake that's already been made. However, as I said, a clan who's winning image has NOTHING to do with Card Advantage, which does mean DP(Well, once Laurel gets involved. Never realized how good that thing is, mostly because I didn't see it's synergy with things besides an Endless Rain combo.), Tachikaze, what with Dragon Egg and Skyptera and their ilk, and Narukami, unless it takes them away from being Kag clones are out. However, what about Granblue, as I never see them actually plussing, but merely trading between the field and the drop a net zero. There probably is an issue with that that I don't know about, but if not, then that is a good example of a clan that could use Crossride, and not necesarily be broken. Too put it simply, Crossride should only be allowed in clans that have only rare plusses to self or minuses to opponents. Of course, it would probably of been better for the subject to never come up at all, but it did, so now we have to deal with it.
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Deingel

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-03, 00:31

Alice wrote:
[quote You wouldn't just dismiss the Theory of Evolution because you think "no one tested it" and you wouldn't dismiss the Theory of Gravity because you think it doesn't work in practice.


You do know it's the Law of Gravity, since it is constant, and Theories need more basis in the course of time.

That's why most theories in Psychology remain as theories, simply because they no longer are viable in the modern setting.



Anyhow, let's not get over ourselves, the problem here is your guys' reluctance for Crossrides. I mean, most Crossrides are either bad or are put in bad decks. The think the reason why you guys don't even like Crossrides is because it will be hard to hit with a 13k defense, while they will be hitting you for high numbers, because they are crossrides.

I'm going to post here the strenghts/weaknesses of the reaveled Crossrides:
DOTE :
Pros: This guys is just god. There's nothing wrong with him. He's a good card put into a good deck.
Cons: The deck in a way is Counterblast reliant, but any good Kagero player knows how to manage those counterblasts for maximum efficiency.

PBO:
Pros: He can hit 20k before boost and have an extra Crit at the cost of one card in your hand.
Cons: The deck he's put in just isn't good. SP doesn't even support the old boss, Phantom Blaster Dragon, properly; how would you even expect them to support this guy?

MLB:
Pros: Good card put into a good deck. The requirement for 2 units to be put into soul won't even cringe you seeing as Royal Pals are the number 1 superior calling deck. Just Superior Call Blaster Blade/Blaster Dark and you're good to go.
Cons: In a way, the deck lacks finishers. Palamedes isn't as good as he was before, and MLB is easy to guard against.

Great Daiyusha:
Pros: Now this is the card that Dimensional Police needed, a card with already high power, and inherent Crit, and you need to do is to boost him with high Power, and he's ready to go.
Cons: 3 or more "Dimensional Robo" in the soul. Goyusha doesn't even help in that area, since you will be losing 4 cards. If you don't want to waste cards, just hope you can pull of a ride of all Dimensional Robos.

Platinum Ezel:
Pros: He's a better Soul Saviour Dragon, and can make the awkward columns that GP tend to make hit actual numbers!
Cons: LB 5, that's easy to control; stop at 4 damage, and don't hit him, until you reveal a Crit Trigger. Also, CB3 for GP is quite awkward, as this deck is built around using every Counterblasts for Superior Calls. With Platinum Ezel in the mix,you are forced to choose between field spam or power boost.

Illuminal Dragon:
Pros: He is a sure Stand for a 2 units, doesn't even need to hit, and the deck isn't even reliant on Counterblast, so that CB3 can be used!
Cons: The unit he's based on isn't the best, and there's still the core problem of Nova Grapplers for crappy hands and hard to set-up fields.
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Mizuki

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-03, 02:31

Deingel, are you ever going to address the whole over centralization that cross rides cause, or will you just continually gloss over that point and continue to shitpost?
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-03, 04:07

Quote :
You do know it's the Law of Gravity, since it is constant, and Theories need more basis in the course of time.
Yes, we know you're an idiot. You don't have to keep proving to us that you like to say things without ever having opened a Science book.
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meeb

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-03, 11:12

Deingel wrote:
Alice wrote:
[quote You wouldn't just dismiss the Theory of Evolution because you think "no one tested it" and you wouldn't dismiss the Theory of Gravity because you think it doesn't work in practice.


You do know it's the Law of Gravity, since it is constant, and Theories need more basis in the course of time.

That's why most theories in Psychology remain as theories, simply because they no longer are viable in the modern setting.

And what about germ theory of disease?

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm

The law of gravity does not explain the force of gravity. It only lists observations. The theory of gravity attempts to explain the why.

Mizuki wrote:
Deingel, are you ever going to address the whole over centralization that cross rides cause, or will you just continually gloss over that point and continue to shitpost?

My guess is the latter.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-03, 23:39

Insert topical joke about intelligent design here.

@This whole theory thing:

Why is this actually a big honking debate? Scientific theory is a working model based on facts and evidence which can be modified and improved, or even rejected, in the light of radical new evidence. It's kind of that easy.

...Anyway just... for the record. I noticed someone commenting about Dimensional Robos needing to be in soul for Great Daiyuusha, and this somehow being a problem.

At G1-

-Dailander, Daimariner

At G2-

-Daidragon, Dailady (yes she's a Dimensional Robo as well)

At G3-

-Daiyuusha, Great Daiyuusha

Basically if you build the deck right, half or more of your G1 (7-8 cards); eighty percent of G2 (eight cards), and all of Grade 3 will be Dimensional Robo. You have to -work- to miss Great Daiyuusha's Limit Break more often than not.

Admittedly it's still far from the king of the mountain, but the reasons for that have nothing to do with that Limit Break being prohibitively hard to pull off in any way.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-03, 23:49

Yeah Scarlet, I find myself at a point of agreeing with you. The math reflects that it's very easy to get Dimensional Robos into the soul even without Goyusha's skill. Hence this thread.
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ShiftyFish

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 00:08

First post on the forum. Just saying that I don't really think crossrides are the game breaking thing that everyone says they are (well, aside from The End). Yeah, they're strong, but a well played deck can still take them down. And besides that, The End is the only one still even relevant anymore (part of me hopes Maelstrom's crossride is decent enough to consider, but I'd be fine if its not). Personally, I'm gonna enjoy using my Bermudas to take down Kagero's shiny new horse vibrator.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 00:14

Not to backtrack previous positions, but I wouldn't go so far as to say The End is "the only one really relevant anymore". Majesty Lord has some equally strong builds, it's just way more expensive and apparently harder to master in some ways (Given I picked the thing up and put it down in disgust I wouldn't know firsthand). The End is certainly the most obviously broken and the strongest, but take it away and about the only one with no relevance whatsoever is PBO and him mostly from having the worst skill and least options out of all the others for deckbuilding. We haven't even seen what kind of impact Platinum Ezel (<3) will have on the competitive game either as a tech for EzelMore (in place of Gigantech Destroyer) or as his own deck. It could be relatively minor, it could be huge, but since Golds are a competitive darling to begin with it certainly won't be "none". Whether crossrides are balanced or not has nothing to do with how relevant they are, and everything to do with how relevant the rest of the game is or will be.
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zerotaine

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 15:59

Greetings card fighters! New to the forum, so ill get to the point.

Do you think that just making the +2000 power work only in your turn is a proper solution for game balancing?
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 16:01

zerotaine wrote:
Greetings card fighters! New to the forum, so ill get to the point.

Do you think that just making the +2000 power work only in your turn is a proper solution for game balancing?

That's the basic gist of it yes.
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zerotaine

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 16:05

How about JI ENDO? would you be happy with just the power balancing or does he need some nerf bat love?

I believe making him lose twin drive would suffice.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 16:12

zerotaine wrote:
How about JI ENDO? would you be happy with just the power balancing or does he need some nerf bat love?

I believe making him lose twin drive would suffice.

Well I think we would be able to live with him just losing the static 2000 but that isn't to say any further nerf would or wouldnt be welcome.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 16:13

zerotaine wrote:
How about JI ENDO? would you be happy with just the power balancing or does he need some nerf bat love?

I believe making him lose twin drive would suffice.

This. Yep. That's exactly how we picture it. My card edits are in the Announcements forum.
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zerotaine

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 16:16

Good! Now all we need is a super large scale movement to make bushiroad implement such changes in the English meta at the release of BT05.

Any clever ideas for this? the open letter to bushiroad was a good start but perhaps we could do more?
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zerotaine

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-04, 16:17

Alice wrote:
zerotaine wrote:
How about JI ENDO? would you be happy with just the power balancing or does he need some nerf bat love?

I believe making him lose twin drive would suffice.

This. Yep. That's exactly how we picture it. My card edits are in the Announcements forum.

Yes i saw them Alice! They hardly even looked modded, i commend your work!
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-09, 18:53

zerotaine wrote:
Good! Now all we need is a super large scale movement to make bushiroad implement such changes in the English meta at the release of BT05.

Any clever ideas for this? the open letter to bushiroad was a good start but perhaps we could do more?

We kinda already tried this. They've heard our prayers and it remains to be seen if they'll work on it.

zerotaine wrote:
Yes i saw them Alice! They hardly even looked modded, i commend your work!

Except the font rendering is too pixelated, the resolution is too small, the rarity says RR, and the artist is the guy who did Death Seeker Thanatos :V
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Klaus

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-13, 19:19

Talked with some people about CFV, drumming up interest.

Sadly right away they fixated on cross rides and think it's good the game has them.

Even thought the fixes discussed here would make them unplayable.
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zawarudo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-13, 19:56

No we need more crossrides, and then even more crossrides.

After that, we can take these crossrides to a computer and analyze it, WITH SCIENCE.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-13, 23:24

Klaus wrote:
Talked with some people about CFV, drumming up interest.

Sadly right away they fixated on cross rides and think it's good the game has them.

Even thought the fixes discussed here would make them unplayable.
>Newbies not knowing jack shit about a game
What else is new?
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Klaus

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-14, 01:37

Oh I know, but it's nice to see people have more whimsy over what they'd like not what just wins.

There's a reason I don't have many people to play with around here; either non existent or they're dicks that think you can only play GP.
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CyprusWHM

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-14, 19:59

I feel like this is one of those issues you don't fully understand until you're playing a game, winning, then a Crossride comes and just messes up everything you set up that match. No matter how many times you look at numbers or theorycraft, nothing gets the point about how game-breaking crossrides are like playing a match, all confident, and then someone crossrides on you.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-14, 23:06

The thing is, it's kind of really easy to tell when a crossride is going to come though. Unless it's some ridiculous tech thing, the one thing crossrides have a hard time ever doing is surprising you with their existence- so theoretically, you have at least a turn or two to shift tactics.

Not that this impacts their balance either way, just noting I find that situation kind of odd. A crossride deck pretty clearly telegraphs itself as a general rule, so surprise maneuvers are hardly their forte.

Also it might just be me, but I actually get a charge out of knowing my opponent is playing one- not really a surge of confidence, more like a surge of "shit just got REAL". The higher the bar is set, the more I actually want to focus on reaching it.
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