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 So let's talk about crossrides!

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Omnigeek

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 03:52

I think the fact that Crossrides are starting to gain pick up (because they really are) is due to the letter that was sent by the people here. I think the people at Bushiroad misinterpreted it and tried to compensate by adding a Crossride to every clan. As a result, we keep seing a bunch that aren't that useful (such as Goddess of the Sun; beautiful art, nice power, but a God awful Persona Blast that really makes CEO far more useful).
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 07:51

ScarletWeather wrote:
The thing is, it's kind of really easy to tell
when a crossride is going to come though. Unless it's some ridiculous
tech thing, the one thing crossrides have a hard time ever doing is
surprising you with their existence- so theoretically, you have at least
a turn or two to shift tactics.

Not that this impacts their
balance either way, just noting I find that situation kind of odd. A
crossride deck pretty clearly telegraphs itself as a general rule, so
surprise maneuvers are hardly their forte.

Also it might just be
me, but I actually get a charge out of knowing my opponent is playing
one- not really a surge of confidence, more like a surge of "shit just
got REAL". The higher the bar is set, the more I actually want to focus
on reaching it.

You know about Public Key Encryption? You know why it's public? Yeah, because the ability to try and break it but simply being unable to due to its sheer integrity is what makes it so strong. Crossrides are the encryption of Vanguard.

Omnigeek wrote:
I think the fact that Crossrides are starting to gain
pick up (because they really are) is due to the letter that was sent by
the people here. I think the people at Bushiroad misinterpreted it and
tried to compensate by adding a Crossride to every clan. As a result,
we keep seing a bunch that aren't that useful (such as Goddess of the
Sun; beautiful art, nice power, but a God awful Persona Blast that
really makes CEO far more useful).
Nope. Not even possible. Card sets are made anywhere from 3-6 months before their announcement date. It's entirely possible that these were made right after the Japanese episode with The End vs PBO went on the air. The problem with this kind of crap is you can't stop it early enough because the company already invested capital and man hours into making it months and months ago. So even if they did want to waste all of that money and time, they'd be without a release for that slot. If they delay, they lose sales. If they shift things down, they have to spend even more money developing things faster by paying overtime or hiring on extra. It's a logistical nightmare that means every set has to do well. They can't make a mistake.

But they did. Two very very big mistakes. Even Japanese people are getting jumpy about BT09 now and they're the not-so-aggressive players. Westerners are going to throw an absolute shitfit. I've already seen people quitting in droves since BT09 was announced. And it's been a lot harder getting new members to start. When they find out there are broken cards on the way soon, they typically don't want to waste their money buying anything right now.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 09:50

I really don't think the panic button is necessary at this point in time, though that's usually my mantra for every new set. Pending Glory Maelstrom, all the new crossrides are really good, but the decks actually do stack up as inferior to The End. They're not bad, it's just that crossrides in BT09 are being intentionally shifted from tier BT-ZERO-five to 1/1+ now. Like, there's a deck-based advantage, it's just not what it was when the mechanic was introduced. And Vanguard's playerbase survived that.

I dunno, in the west it might hurt but I'm pretty sure at home BT09's going to freaking boom if BT05's sales were any indication. And even here in MURRICA, we're a very secondary market for Bushiroad.

Agreed on the whole public key encryption thing though. Knowing what's coming doesn't help unless you're able to capitalize on it in some kind of meaningful way.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 14:27

Today I had a discussion with several friends on Ji Endo's merits. I was tossing up my options between MLB and DOTE until someone pointed out the only expensive cards in DOTE decks are Heatnail, Barri, and Ji Endo himself. Everything else is Trial deck stuff or single rare. Like Tejas as suggested by DifferenceInSkill.

As opposed to MLB where you shell out for Palamedes, Blaster Blade, Iseult, MLB, Starcall, etc.

This revelation has pretty much sent me in a Heroic BSOD.

Cheap, effective, broken. We are so dead.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 15:29

That's probably the most retarded thing about The End, to be honest, and it explains why it's so far ahead of Majesty Lord in Japan despite the decks probably sitting at about or near the same tier. It's way cheaper, and Japan had a glut of competitive Kagero players even before it was printed.

(Also in the interests of nitpicking, you can completely avoid playing Palamedes in Majesty. In fact, I know people who think it's sub-optimal because the trick with Majesty is being able to focus a lot of pressure on your center line and harry the front row with your side lanes- kinda like Alice's Reijy deck, actually, but a lot more powerful).

You don't even need Heatnail for The End to begin with. Berserk, Neharen, Burning Horn, boom. At Grade 1 you can shell out for Kimnara if you don't already have it but otherwise just stack with meaty units and Barri. Effectively, you have everything you need to make a working deck right there, and it's going to be competitive, period.

Honestly? The strangest and best thing about the new crossrides is that without exception, every single one I've played with so far hasn't performed quite as well as The End. Illuminal Dragon and Great Daiyuusha are strong cards, but they bottleneck you into using a specific subset of other units, and Illuminal forces you to think in terms of restanding units to get the most out of it. The BLOOD is good, but made awkward because Narukami don't have the backrow-striking power of Kagero and its Ultimate Break is a little awkward to get access to- you need to be running damage enablers, or it's really easy to play around and you're better off riding Vermillion back over it if you really need a frontrow clear.

Plezel the jury is out on because I still haven't tried to do anything with it yet, but I'm betting that it's going to be top tier, but be kept out of tier zero by virtue of LB5 being horrendously awkward to work with. You can do it, it's just that the deck won't be quite as consistent at creating and maintaining pressure as The End would be, and once Platinum hits play it is a legitimate move to just try to play around it the way you do megablasts. Center line attacks Vanguard, rear guard lanes attack rear guards, five damage refused.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 15:32

ScarletWeather wrote:
I really don't think the panic button is
necessary at this point in time, though that's usually my mantra for
every new set. Pending Glory Maelstrom, all the new crossrides are
really good, but the decks actually do stack up as inferior to The End.
They're not bad, it's just that crossrides in BT09 are being
intentionally shifted from tier BT-ZERO-five to 1/1+ now. Like, there's
a deck-based advantage, it's just not what it was when the mechanic was
introduced. And Vanguard's playerbase survived that.

I dunno, in
the west it might hurt but I'm pretty sure at home BT09's going to
freaking boom if BT05's sales were any indication. And even here in
MURRICA, we're a very secondary market for Bushiroad.

Agreed on
the whole public key encryption thing though. Knowing what's coming
doesn't help unless you're able to capitalize on it in some kind of
meaningful way.

The "panic button", as you very well know by now, is that we just wasted all our money on decks that don't have crossrides. And for those of us who invested in cross-clans, we still have to use a nearly all vanilla deck just to compete.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 15:38

Alice wrote:

The "panic button", as you very well know
by now, is that we just wasted all our money on decks that don't have
crossrides. And for those of us who invested in cross-clans, we still
have to use a nearly all vanilla deck just to compete.

There's no guarantee it'll stay that way, is the thing. I invested in what eventually became a cross-clan but I really have no interest in selling out and buying Plezel because that's not why I picked the clan I did. There's a lot of things that aren't necessary magic bullets, but which shrink the gap crossrides have. Almost every clan now with like, a few really big glaring exceptions, has a way of making up the pressure difference- either early into the game or through late game power up applications. You can't avoid crossrides starting with an advantage, but the advantage can be controlled and made up with skill.

This isn't "your cards are now worthless", it's just having to deal with the first visible tier one English Vanguard will have, outside of the insanity that is Gold Paladins being more popular than Jesus. I guess I can understand why other people are reacting this way, but for me this is exactly the gap I remember the clans having since, like, throughout the game's history. I can't really be disappointed or see it as backsliding when it's status quo.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 15:49

ScarletWeather wrote:
There's no guarantee it'll stay that way, is the thing.
Uhh, see that's where you're wrong. Unless you specifically mean they might ban, restrict, or errata them which I think we've all lost hope of. You can't change the damage that's already been done. Even if 13k is the new 11k, then it's just an arbitrary numbers leap that invalidates all the old cards for nothing. A simple "During your turn" would've made them completely mesh with the rest of the library forever.

ScarletWeather wrote:
This isn't "your cards are now worthless", it's just having to deal with the first visible tier one English Vanguard will have, outside of the insanity that is Gold Paladins being more popular than Jesus.
English players got to deal with a very balanced game for a very long time. Even in Japan, the clans were never this obtusely outclassed, though they were somewhat. For Japan, it was just the next step up in a game with ever-growing odd gaps. The English release Schedule changed all of that. We have like almost all the clans now and almost all of them are exactly balanced against each other. We don't have crossrides. So when they hit, the game is broken and done. We don't want to "deal with" a Tier 1 in English. There's no reason for one to even exist.

Quote :
Plezel the jury is out on because I still haven't tried to do anything with it yet
The End is still better going by the skills. However, just ignore Plezel's skill because that's completely unimportant. The thing that makes him ridiculous is...hint: go read my new Superior Ride article in the first section.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 17:05

From my experience with the meta, in Japan the gaps weren't growing after set five- they stabilized and swung back because the broadened support for the various clans allowed for Japanese Vanguard to lower the disparity. The fact that virtually every clan at this point has some kind of power attacker Grade 3 and the fact that it's a completely valid move in a lot of decks to just rush when you hit Grade 2 and try to do as much damage during that turn as possible means crossrides are not what they used to be. Still ridiculous, yes, complete invalidation, not so much anymore. You can still use the old cards, you just have to find a new way to run them. And no, you can't count on it being some kind of optimal crossride-killer, but that doesn't mean you can't stand up to them and have an even set of games.

And yeah, I'm well aware of the one thing Plezel gets that no other crossride has access to. I just have this obsession with wanting to play it out for myself before I make a call on whether it'll end up pushing the deck forward or not. It's just one of those things where I'll have an easier time making a judgment call for myself after I pick up the deck and play with/against it.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-01, 17:24

"Even" means even. It doesn't mean one deck sits there gaining mechanical advantage over another passively. At most it means decks that can go anti-crossride are Tier 2. That's no good from the perspective of an entire playerbase that's used to balance.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-18, 12:14

Well there is still hope. Then again if the metas are so divided then I wonder what will happen to Japanese players who find out that they've been treated as the un-favourites. Zey vill be cross.

Supposing crossrides were indeed nerfed for English Meta. If they were only 13k during the user's turn, do you think they would replace Spectral Duke as the overplayed decks of the meta?

Interesting how one would react to the loss of the English equilvalent of Tsukuyomi.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-12-18, 12:46

Spectral Duke would still be a joke compared to Stern and The End. He's not bad but he's not overpowered either. If he's the most overplayed deck, oh fucking well. It'd probably be due to the WC win rather than a natural balancing act. Just look at GP already: they're just as good as any other clan but are overplayed because of some misconceptions and bandwagoning.

It really doesn't matter what's played the most as long as everything is still fair and not forced vanilla.
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G&P Kitsy

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 19:15

Did I just hear Spectral Duke is a joke compared to Stern?

I'm wondering where Stern got all this hype.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 19:36

G&P Kitsy wrote:
Did I just hear Spectral Duke is a joke compared to Stern?

I'm wondering where Stern got all this hype.
From his performance.
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G&P Kitsy

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 19:48

Alice wrote:
G&P Kitsy wrote:
Did I just hear Spectral Duke is a joke compared to Stern?

I'm wondering where Stern got all this hype.
From his performance.
I haven't seen many tops of it in the Japanese meta, nor have I seen much evidence of it in the English meta thus far.

Granted, Stern is very strong if you're going first, there are just too many variables to his use.
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Dragon∞Blade

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 20:35

Vs a Stern deck, they can keep you at 3 damage until you let Strike Freedom Gundam hit.
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G&P Kitsy

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 20:44

That could be useful versus several decks, though targeting rear guards seems like somewhat of a waste of critical triggers, since most Stern decks max those out.
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Dragon∞Blade

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 20:50

Actually, Gundam decks work great with stands too. (Dancing Wolf shenanigans indeed).
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G&P Kitsy

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 21:13

That could potentially run into a similar problem (Since if both of your RGs target their RGs, then they guard the Vanguard, a RG stood with a Stand Trigger will have no choice but to target the Vanguard or let the Trigger go to waste), but it sounds interesting, especially against decks without easy methods to replace their Rear Guards.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 22:23

What is this detailed discussion doing in a crossride thread and not its own thread?
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G&P Kitsy

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 22:29

Okay, I'll post my opinion on Crossrides.

The End was overpowering. It was a mistake. Bushi tried pretty much every method it could to remedy it, such as 12k all the time G3 Rear Guards as well as Limit Break to make it easier for non-13k Vanguards to compete, but then eventually resorted to the ban-hammer to resolve the issue that was "The End".

Not a single other Crossride has proven to have a detrimental effect on the game at all, each one of them balanced by either a mostly vanilla skill, lack of consistency, or just a lack of overall support for the clan in which they reside.

Then Bushiroad released Ride Breaks.

The End.
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Chestnut_Rice

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 23:02

PureCray wrote:
Games are most competitive when you weed out all the riff-raff and get it down to just a few decks. think about it, if everyon uses say DOTE, then all games come down to only the skills of the players involved. Plus it gets rid of players who aren't serious enough to pony up the money for the best decks. Other clans are for casual play

Oh my God I can't believe you actually said this.

I would agree with you, but only if Vanguard is completely skill. Trigger checks and the cards you draw involve chance, so if you get it down to just a couple decks, it's going to be no fun AT ALL. Imagine if you could start with different layouts in Chess, and had to roll a die when capturing pieces, that'd be a pretty fun game, right? Yea of course, I'd spring for that. But then the publisher releases a REALLY REALLY STRONGK starting lay-out that just absolutely rapes the other layouts. Every one starts using it and the element of chance is still there. It's just rolling dice at that point. Suddenly, not so fun any more. That's what Cross-rides are doing to Vanguard unless Bushi restricts them right from the get-go, which I don't think is likely...
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G&P Kitsy

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 23:09

That's what The End did to Vanguard, but to say that all Crossrides are doing it is kinda silly.

There are plenty of more stable builds, even in their respective clans, than Platina Ezel or Goddess Amaterasu.
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smellmybox

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-12, 23:19

Chestnut_Rice wrote:
Imagine if you could start with different layouts in Chess, and had to roll a die when capturing pieces, that'd be a pretty fun game, right?

It's called Summoner Wars.
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G&P Kitsy

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-13, 13:10

Fine.

The difference in between how Bushi is handling English and Japanese mostly lies in that they released set 5, in other words, the set that created the first dominant decks in Vanguard, much later than in Japanese.

Meaning, compared to what Japan had at the time, we have a much larger and much more able cardpool to fight the tide of The End and Majesty Lord Blaster.

The only set in the game to feature truly broken cards is Set 5, so us getting it later makes a lot of sense, since we have a lot more options to fight against it as opposed to Japan which got The End, invested in it, then just kept playing that deck forever. After all, why bother playing a new deck like Golds if they already have The End?

I'm not trying to say The End won't dominate here, but I highly doubt that the extent to which it dominates will be comparable to what happened in Japan, simply because of the following reasons:

1) English meta is already bought in and invested in decks like Gold Paladin, unlike Japan which got The End first, and never saw reason to change.

2) Banlist fear. Many players will be cautious about building The End and will likely hold off out of fear that the Banlist will wreck their investment.

3) We have in English a lot of the pieces intended to fight The End already, like the 12k RG G3s that almost every deck has.
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