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 So let's talk about crossrides!

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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 08:09

TehNACHO wrote:
Just saying, Ezel, Viviane, and especially Clutch Rifle Angel all received different skills from their Japanese counterparts. Thus, an errata for National Cross-Rides doesn't really seem that far out of line.

Bushiroad also stated these changes were to make sure the two games were separate.
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VesperGhoul

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 13:57

3XXXDDD wrote:
TehNACHO wrote:
Just saying, Ezel, Viviane, and especially Clutch Rifle Angel all received different skills from their Japanese counterparts. Thus, an errata for National Cross-Rides doesn't really seem that far out of line.

Bushiroad also stated these changes were to make sure the two games were separate.

I see, I was unaware of that, however if they were to do this wouldn't it hurt sales of product since people will see that the version being released isn't as good as what they expected to get? As a business, this makes bushi less money on sealed product sales, which also leads me to believe that the cross-rides will not be changed or errata'd in ENG. I think that the applying of the restricted list for Japan to English with additions for GP is the much more likely route that they will take after everyone has spent their money on product.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 14:11

It keeps people who aren't into that sort of thing.

If they leave because it's not a broken mess, good.

Less douches for us.

Besides, they don't have to know that yet...*shiftily looks at Chrome Jailer* I mean, you hype 'em up and then...
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 14:17

Besides, implementing the exact same list wouldn't make sense since we have completely different tastes. Bushiroad also clearly stated (while probably supressing their anger and hatred) that they have no plans to make it happen.
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Lockon Stratos

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 14:26

Not necesarily Vesper. All those cards Nacho mentioned? The English versions are the superior ones(The GP: English gives you options. Clutch Rifle: No longer have to play catch up in order to use.) Which means a change doesn't necesarily mean weakening the card(Before anyone says it, no, Crossrides are broken enough as is. Making them stronger is such a stupendously bad idea, so I very much doubt that anyone is stupid enough to try to improve them. Do not panic.) so would an improvement not mean that the sets with the improved cards will not also have improved sales? Basically, instead of losing sales, they'd be more... shuffling them around. Yes, I realize no one got as excited about those cards' changes as would be pissed about Crossride nerfs, but, hey, they could improve some of the more useless cards of the set in order to still get people interested.. Don't ask me which ones, I've mostly avoided BT05 like the plague. Anyway, they'd still be losing sales, but they wouldn't be losing AS much.

Yet another harebrained scheme from Lockon. Youre welcome.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 17:22

Lockon Stratos wrote:
Not necesarily Vesper. All those cards Nacho mentioned? The English versions are the superior ones(The GP: English gives you options. Clutch Rifle: No longer have to play catch up in order to use.) Which means a change doesn't necesarily mean weakening the card(Before anyone says it, no, Crossrides are broken enough as is. Making them stronger is such a stupendously bad idea, so I very much doubt that anyone is stupid enough to try to improve them. Do not panic.) so would an improvement not mean that the sets with the improved cards will not also have improved sales? Basically, instead of losing sales, they'd be more... shuffling them around. Yes, I realize no one got as excited about those cards' changes as would be pissed about Crossride nerfs, but, hey, they could improve some of the more useless cards of the set in order to still get people interested.. Don't ask me which ones, I've mostly avoided BT05 like the plague. Anyway, they'd still be losing sales, but they wouldn't be losing AS much.

Yet another harebrained scheme from Lockon. Youre welcome.
What I want to know is why no one ever considers Bushiroad's long term sales. Crossrides are power cards and they only generate hype short-term. After a few months to a year, they still have to be selling other products well. This means one or more of the following: Releasing more power cards and spiraling into yugioh; restricting old power cards to force interest in new sets.

It's a terrible business model that will cause people to leave the game.
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alexander.stone88

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 17:26

well, alternativly, they could go the magic route, and have it so cards rotate out.but it makes older cards obsolete except in eternal or casual formats.
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VesperGhoul

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 17:42

Most card games that go past a certain point usually have to implement a banned/restricted list OR a rotation system in order to avoid the never ending spiral of power creep that Alice mentioned. At this point this appears to be the implementation of a restricted list that is different from outright banning cards.

On topic - Cross rides seem to be here to stay, and since there a gap of months before cards are printed with the thought of being able to hit them profitably. (LB's being bushi's attempt at being able to do this I assume)

I think that all that is needed for most tribes to be able to compete are more RG's that are like palamedes/belvedere, that can hit 12/13k unboosted for a chance to be able to hit magic numbers against cross rides on the RG circle.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-16, 17:51

That's called vanilla-ising and that's a terrible idea because it means the gimmicks unique to the deck will be for nothing.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-18, 15:36

alexander.stone88 wrote:
well, alternativly, they could go the magic route, and have it so cards rotate out.but it makes older cards obsolete except in eternal or casual formats.
Set rotation is another horrible business model. That's when you've made so many horrible cards, you can't keep track of banning them all and have to ban whole sets which ruins whole collections for people who want to remain competitive. I will never play a set rotation game again. Money sink.

VesperGhoul wrote:
Most card games that go past a certain point usually have to implement a banned/restricted list OR a rotation system in order to avoid the never ending spiral of power creep that Alice mentioned. At this point this appears to be the implementation of a restricted list that is different from outright banning cards.
Most games do, that's true. I think what companies need to do beforehand is use all the data of other card games to formulate an ironclad business model. It could've worked perfectly for vanguard. The easiest priority is: don't make power cards. For Vanguard, that's not difficult since the game is very simple and on-rails. You have to try to break it. Secondly, just errata cards you fuck up. Thirdly, restrict cards that you can't errata because you're a prideful oaf or have no idea how to fix it. Fourthly, ban card(s) that you FUBAR'd. Fifthly, set rotation because you've printed 60 sets and it's over two decades into your game by now.

VesperGhoul wrote:
On topic - Cross rides seem to be here to stay, and since there a gap of months before cards are printed with the thought of being able to hit them profitably. (LB's being bushi's attempt at being able to do this I assume)

I think that all that is needed for most tribes to be able to compete are more RG's that are like palamedes/belvedere, that can hit 12/13k unboosted for a chance to be able to hit magic numbers against cross rides on the RG circle.
Power LBs failed miserably to dent CRs because they are only the vanguard position. Three stage vanguard in late game is nice vs CRs, but the inability for any clan's rears to reliably hit 3 stages without a hefty cost or minus against CRs is still a huge problem. Worse, is just making every clan about hitting power for CRs. You still won't get the 23k 3-stage threshold without outright breaking the game, and instead you'll make every deck even MORE vanilla by making them all just chase the same numbers but at the expense of effects. Essentially, to keep that up you need power and effects, which is huge power creep, which invalidates old cards, which is still the problem with CRs.
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alexander.stone88

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-18, 16:09

No rudeness ment of course, but I do have to disagree reguarding set rotation. I find it a decent buisness model.(not the best, but better then some.) first, it can open up reprints in casual products without tanking prices.it can also open up reprints to make cards accessable again (similer on how they intend to reprint PGs.) not saying there haven't been mistakes in magic.power level of some early sets were crazy, as well as urza block. (only set the designers got in crap for) but set rotation isn't so much about the cards as it is mechanics.there are a ton of keyword abilitys in magic, unlike other games.narrowing what keywords are in standerd makes it less intimidating for new players, until they look into other formats, and see them. but this is my personal opinion

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VesperGhoul

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-18, 20:50

Alice wrote:

Most games do, that's true. I think what companies need to do beforehand is use all the data of other card games to formulate an ironclad business model. It could've worked perfectly for vanguard. The easiest priority is: don't make power cards. For Vanguard, that's not difficult since the game is very simple and on-rails. You have to try to break it. Secondly, just errata cards you fuck up. Thirdly, restrict cards that you can't errata because you're a prideful oaf or have no idea how to fix it. Fourthly, ban card(s) that you FUBAR'd. Fifthly, set rotation because you've printed 60 sets and it's over two decades into your game by now.

The problem with the first method is that it requires extensive testing with a large sample size in order to test the interactions with other cards that can be played in conjunction with it BEFORE being released. Take Garmore for instance, when it was first released it, bushi thought that it was balanced with respect to the cards that were included with the trial deck, and probably with limited testing with the BT06 cards that would complement it. Then once Dindraine/Lop-Ear got released all of a sudden garmore became a G3 +1/+2 card advantage engine that could generate a column out of nowhere in a tribe where inconsistency was supposed to be a feature. So in this regard is garmore a problem by itself? not really, garmore is a problem thanks to other effects that synergize way too well with it.

So how would one overcome this type of problem without having some kind of beta testing group that can find this kind of thing out? (Costing Bushi both time and money to do so)
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gettineggywithit

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-18, 21:25

VesperGhoul wrote:
The problem with the first method is that it requires extensive testing with a large sample size in order to test the interactions with other cards that can be played in conjunction with it BEFORE being released. Take Garmore for instance, when it was first released it, bushi thought that it was balanced with respect to the cards that were included with the trial deck, and probably with limited testing with the BT06 cards that would complement it. Then once Dindraine/Lop-Ear got released all of a sudden garmore became a G3 +1/+2 card advantage engine that could generate a column out of nowhere in a tribe where inconsistency was supposed to be a feature. So in this regard is garmore a problem by itself? not really, garmore is a problem thanks to other effects that synergize way too well with it.

So how would one overcome this type of problem without having some kind of beta testing group that can find this kind of thing out? (Costing Bushi both time and money to do so)

The issue with your example is that the Garmore combo is the ONLY consistent combo they have. SDD can flop often and we're not gonna talk about Plezel. Ezel himself is ASS and Pellinoire is even worse. MAYBE Chromejailer dragon. +2 columns out of nowhere isn't possible with Garmore due to having to use Lop Ear (thus discarding a card), Garmore himself (minusing on the ride), or Spring Breeze (thus losing a booster to roll the dice and risk getting screwed). Garmore is just the usual CB2+1 that many clans already have. Also, if you were referring to a Lop-Ear/Dindrane combo, remember that it's not only just a plus 1, but also only reaches 15k.

Also, you're assuming that Bushiroad released Lop Ear and Dindrane without first testing them with Garmore.

Your argument implies that Garmore is broken. Believe me, he is NOT broken. He is good, but not broken. If you want broken, see Goldylot, Bad-End Dragger, and anything that can create a 12k or higher defending vanguard on the opponent's turn for free (Crossrides and MLB).
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Tryston

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-18, 21:31

^ I stand by what eggy said 100%
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VesperGhoul

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-19, 00:52

gettineggywithit wrote:

The issue with your example is that the Garmore combo is the ONLY consistent combo they have. SDD can flop often and we're not gonna talk about Plezel. Ezel himself is ASS and Pellinoire is even worse. MAYBE Chromejailer dragon. +2 columns out of nowhere isn't possible with Garmore due to having to use Lop Ear (thus discarding a card), Garmore himself (minusing on the ride), or Spring Breeze (thus losing a booster to roll the dice and risk getting screwed). Garmore is just the usual CB2+1 that many clans already have. Also, if you were referring to a Lop-Ear/Dindrane combo, remember that it's not only just a plus 1, but also only reaches 15k.

Also, you're assuming that Bushiroad released Lop Ear and Dindrane without first testing them with Garmore.

Your argument implies that Garmore is broken. Believe me, he is NOT broken. He is good, but not broken. If you want broken, see Goldylot, Bad-End Dragger, and anything that can create a 12k or higher defending vanguard on the opponent's turn for free (Crossrides and MLB).

I see your point, and I was not saying that Garmore was broken by any means, I was just using it as an example as to why it is sometimes hard to balance cards completely before their scheduled release. In this case it probably would have been better to cite DOTE as the example, however I didn't want to beat a dead horse as I'm sure most people have used it to imply bad card design.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-19, 01:07

It's seriously not that hard to balance Vanguard cards. With the exception of only Crossrides, the rest of them are either balanced or underpowered.
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NinjaSonic

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-25, 03:02

Most crossrides are balanced considering the new Narukami unit coming out.
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TehNACHO

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-25, 03:23

Balanced on the scale of being broken, or balanced on the scale of what you're probably looking for, overpowered?
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-25, 03:54

Also consider that Decendant is just 11k without Vowing. As a stand-alone card, it still isn't quite up there with Crossrides.
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LittleFighterFox

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-25, 12:56

I see in set 10 a huge assortment of 21k columns(and 31k Vanguards). With a 11k base, that 3/5/3 requires at least 7 non-perfect cards without triggers. Have a MLB/DOTE? You plopped it down to a 2/4/2 that only requires 4. Pretty much cuts down the guard in half. Break rides just hurt 11k vanguards EVEN MORE while making crossrides guard normally. It's not helping anyone here.
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NinjaSonic

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-25, 15:31

Honestly none of the crossrides bother me that much. Compared to themselves I don't see one that just stands out. They all have strengths and weaknesses but what doesn't. By playing a crossride deck you gain a potential (notice potential) 13k defense which is pretty good. On the other hand you lose big RG colums which can be a problem when you're trying to push in late game.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-25, 15:55

...When do you EVER lose good RG columns? Burning Horn Dragon (and all clones thereof) are pretty much a given in the deck, and even with a 6k booster they can still hit 18k.

A previous forum (I post it on page 6, feel free to snoop around) lists that you get your 13k 68% of the time. A little over 2/3 games is still enough to say that it's low cost with big rewards, which is frankly unnacceptable.

Besides, it is NOT being argued that crossrides have big skills. It is simply being asserted that 13k breaks the established 11k environment, which is enough reason to warrant nerfing. If every crossride had nothing else going for it except 13k, then it still would warrant a nerfing.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-01-26, 05:04

You gain 13k defense reliably in almost 7/10 games. That's no longer in the realm of "potential" and is now a viable deck keel.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-02-09, 13:32

So all I've been hearing all day are people saying "Crossrides are 13k? Just attack the RGs then to force 10k!"

Have gone on hiatus partially because I won't get a weapon to fight back until June, but also because I keep explaining to them that you have 3 cards added to your hand every turn and so attacking RGs is stupid because it pretty much works out to be the same amount of shield anyway.
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Omnigeek

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2013-02-09, 13:46

Not only that, but they probably wouldn't guard the rear anyway if it would take 10k at least to stop.
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