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 So let's talk about crossrides!

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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 20:11

3XXXDDD wrote:
Cross-Ride decks wasting resources?

I'm sorry but no, just no. 13K = A Re-active +3 during your Opponent's turn in relative terms if you were to deck a 10 or 11 K Vanguard.

He phrased it badly, tbh. Having the choice between using 5k shield that's a unit you want to put into play vs. using 10k but overguarding an attack happens sometimes in crossride decks. It's actually got a pretty easy solution though- try to abuse intercept and switch out attackers whenever you can, and just revel in the fact that you can run more draw triggers than the average deck and not suffer if you happen to have a bunch in-hand.

It's certainly not a weakness I'd be citing one way or the other, though. I see the biggest weak point of crossride decks, if you can call it that, being that the most balanced ones are given to clans that don't have a lot of options for abusing them- for example, I like how to use either the Beast Deity crossride or Great Daiyuusha effectively, you don't just need to run the crossride and its keyword G3, you need to run a certain sub-set of units to make it work properly (even if they aren't bad units, your choices become restricted). On reflection that's probably why The End and Majesty Lord Blaster bug me so much more- they have a ridiculous amount of choice in terms of lower-grade units in some ways, and more than enough to pick and choose from to build an optimal deck that covers any weak points you might have had before.
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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 20:17

CAUTION: WALL OF TEXT APPROACHING

Really, the biggest offender as stated repeated times is DOTE, a card which is quite frankly absurd in it's power output. Not through sheer numbers, mind you, but because of the advantage it creates throughout the game. Assuming you obviously crossride it, it'll be on 13k power DEFENSIVELY. This actually makes a massive impact, as it screws with the numbers your opponent has to hit, most decks being unable to easily compete with it. Hence the idea of the anti-crossride deck; one that lowers general utility by simply stocking up on cards that hit the new numbers for 13k defensive typing. You need to include a lot moreunits that gain power or boost for bigger numbers than you usually would to be able to get those columns reliably, and those kinds of cards don't come with skills that are much better in terms of utility like Blaster or things like Bunnies and Alices... in fact, "gimmick"-based clans suffer a lot more as their mechanic isn't about hitting these big numbers, but doing tricks with whatever mechanic they utilise.

Also, the brutal advantage it gives you just by attacking. 2 twin drives is egregious. Now, I've heard it stated before a while back that because DOTE requires a Persona Blast, advantage is still +3. The net gain is NOT what is important here, but the fact that you can pull Triggers off 4 times, instead of 3. That is insane. You're dumping what amounts to a useless DOTE for it's skill, anyway and getting 4 FRESH cards out of it, whereas with something like Triple Drive, that dead card would still be wafting around in your hand to serve only as null guard fodder. Also, that then improves the chances of driving into ANOTHER DOTE, whether through the drive check itself or a possible Draw Trigger.

In fact, it's entirely possible (albeit unlikely) to, if you have 4 damage spare of course, fire off DOTE's skill ONCE, check into another DOTE and fire it AGAIN flipping that last 2 damage, netting you a possible Uber Drive. Yes, it's unlikely, but I'm not aware of ANY OTHER CARD in the game that even has this as a possibility. And the fact that you then drive so much means that you will get at least 1 trigger reliably. Place on DOTE and now he is going for 18k, and chances are also, 2 crit. The things that are POSSIBLE with a card like DOTE are nuts and it won't be long before eventually cards are released that will allow us to be able to toolbox this strategy.

Back to reality for a moment, I've seen someone manage to get 3 Draw Triggers off of getting DOTE. While that would be possible with just a Triple Drive, that would require those Draws to be spaced out in a way that you don't draw into them and get them on ALL your drive checks. With 4 drive checks, you can go Draw, drawn card, Draw, drawn card, void card, then draw on that last 4th check. That's advantage up the wazoo! And with the right trigger setup, doing this example is actually within the realm of believable possibilty.

And then there is null guards. Your opponent will have to be dropping those if they KNOW you've got another DOTE ready for the Persona Blast, which means you can simply allocate your Triggers to your RG's, skirting around the null guard. Yes, you don't get the Quad Drive, but you do more damage than if it was just a simple Grade 3.

The sheer fuckery that is POSSIBLE with DOTE is insane. Eventually, someone somewhere will pull one of these of in a high-profile tournament and people will then flock to DOTE decks, trying to get that to happen to them. The sheer amount of DOTE decks thusly being played will lead to an increase in anti-crossride, etc.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 20:22

AstoXx wrote:
CAUTION: WALL OF TEXT APPROACHING


The sheer fuckery that is POSSIBLE with DOTE is insane. Eventually, someone somewhere will pull one of these of in a high-profile tournament and people will then flock to DOTE decks, trying to get that to happen to them. The sheer amount of DOTE decks thusly being played will lead to an increase in anti-crossride, etc.

Didn't that already happen and it was called "Japan's tournament scene"?
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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 20:28

I mean that someone will manage to pull off activating DOTE's skill twice or getting a full flock of 4 draws or crits or something. As far as I'm aware, while DOTE did wreck the Japan scene, no-one managed to pull off the ultimate perfect check at all and I most certainly haven't heard of anyone getting the Uber-Ridiculous Drive yet. If that has already happened, then we Western players, with our mindset, are even more fucked.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 20:41

AstoXx wrote:
I mean that someone will manage to pull off activating DOTE's skill twice or getting a full flock of 4 draws or crits or something. As far as I'm aware, while DOTE did wreck the Japan scene, no-one managed to pull off the ultimate perfect check at all and I most certainly haven't heard of anyone getting the Uber-Ridiculous Drive yet. If that has already happened, then we Western players, with our mindset, are even more fucked.

DOTE was like... iirc, fifty percent of all entered decks into Japan's nationals. It was basically their Gold Paladin but twice as bad, especially given that the rest of the field was skewed to like, 2-3 other decks instead of 4-6, and one of those other decks was Majesty Lord Blaster.

I know people get worked up about how much a painful sack it is to get hit by DOTE's persona blast, but I've honestly considered that the least insane part of the card- after all, Stern Blaukruger may get you a net -1 for the turn but it can check up to three triggers in a row AND stand its booster for a full power (or higher than full power) attack. The things that really piss me off about DOTE's persona blast are, not necessarily in order:

-It can be used in any deck that DOTE is played in.

As long as you run DOTE, you can get access to the Persona Blast, period. Thus, there's no way to really build a deck that's 'sub-optimal' because your ability to use the blast is restricted, unless you're doing something weird like running less than four copies of the card.

-The threat of it hitting is always online, and it can start creating pressure very early into the game.

As early as three damage, not guarding DOTE is a risk. Your opponent may not have the card, and I've slowly learned that it's sometimes best to just take the hit even if they potentially have it because you're gonna lose resources either way. The fact that they MIGHT hit and stand again is almost worse than the fact that they can.

-It's on a 13k body.

Something that can deflect that much pressure should not be able to create so much pressure in return so early. Making Great Daiyuusha and NG's new crossride Limit Breaks was a pretty good idea entirely because it restricts the portion of the game when they are able to exhibit the most pressure to one very specific point, and while Platinum Ezel has other issues I like the idea of making the most insane skills in general LB5.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 20:59

ThtAzndomination wrote:
Exactly. Hitting the 13k allows you to survive longer. So basically you need to have a good early game to counter that your opponent will have a better late game. Strategies matter. I usually face crossride decks regularly and what I do differently against them than other decks? Nothing. I pull the same stuff that I usually do. If they don't want to waste a 10k guard on a 5k attack but don't want to waste a grade 1 or grade 2, well they are in a predicament. Its not easy to be them too because they have to waste resources that are more valuable for a lesser cause.

I find it interesting that your answer is to outplay them in the early game. But if that were the answer, then normal non-crossride decks which are just as vulnerable to getting hit by a strong early game will also be just as weak. Except their mid and late games won't be as good as a crossride deck's. So non-crossride decks are unilaterally worse in your own example.
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zawarudo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 21:53

AstoXx wrote:
I mean that someone will manage to pull off activating DOTE's skill twice or getting a full flock of 4 draws or crits or something. As far as I'm aware, while DOTE did wreck the Japan scene, no-one managed to pull off the ultimate perfect check at all and I most certainly haven't heard of anyone getting the Uber-Ridiculous Drive yet. If that has already happened, then we Western players, with our mindset, are even more fucked.

I did it.

Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
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Another Leather Lung

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 22:35

wan0009 wrote:
P.S. To dear Another Leather Lung-san: Yes, I am on drugs, why else would I be here and debating about this in the first place? :D You are such a sweet and hilarious person :)
I made the post in regards to the thread creator, but now that you mention it, the same could have been said about your posts.

I'd give reason, but I can't really say anything that hasn't already been said.
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Lockon Stratos

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 22:43

Well, if this guy is serious, man is he nuts. If he isn't, hats off to you, you've given me a VERY good laugh. I'm actually surprised so many people are taking him dead seriously, especially with the wording making this seem like an obvious joke. Of course, this IS the internet, with it's intelligence and class sapping powers, so I can't say for sure.
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meeb

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-30, 11:43

Alice wrote:
ThtAzndomination wrote:
Exactly. Hitting the 13k allows you to survive longer. So basically you need to have a good early game to counter that your opponent will have a better late game. Strategies matter. I usually face crossride decks regularly and what I do differently against them than other decks? Nothing. I pull the same stuff that I usually do. If they don't want to waste a 10k guard on a 5k attack but don't want to waste a grade 1 or grade 2, well they are in a predicament. Its not easy to be them too because they have to waste resources that are more valuable for a lesser cause.

I find it interesting that your answer is to outplay them in the early game. But if that were the answer, then normal non-crossride decks which are just as vulnerable to getting hit by a strong early game will also be just as weak. Except their mid and late games won't be as good as a crossride deck's. So non-crossride decks are unilaterally worse in your own example.

I pointed that in my post, and he responded with what you just quoted. His reading comprehension skills are terrible. As is his ability to think logically.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 04:05

Just realised the original poster (PureCray) hasn't come back yet. Did he jump ship after realising he has no leg to stand on, or something?
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 14:19

He's been lurking a bit and I've overheard something recently about him looking for people to join his "team" and write on the blog. He probably made this just to advertise and scout you all.
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Nysonin609

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:09

I mentioned this on the blog, and was linked here. I'm just wondering, Alice, what is your opinion on the new BT09 Crossrides? I feel like they balance out the game a bit, though wold have prefered no crossrides at all.
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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:16

Crossrides IMPROVING balance?

...Isn't that an oxymoron?
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Mizuki

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:20

So let's talk about crossrides!

Sure. By talk, I mean, I'm not buying any more bushiroad products, and I'm giving away everything but my deck. :3c
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Nysonin609

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:25

Haha, a bit of one. However, as much as I would prefer no crossrides and keeping the game balanced as it currently is, the release of crossrides is almost inevitable. I think Bushiroad realized this, probably through Alice's letter. I also feel like the announcement of the new crossrides in BT09 (eventhough it's years away for us) is their way of balancing out decks, without banning cards and screwing over everyone that spent good money on their cards. Yes, I am sure that some crossrides will still be better than others, but at least when the Cross-Pocalypse comes, atleast everyone has a chance of winning, instead of DOTE applying maximum preassure and being almost untouchable.
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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:42

I think it's well established that while some other crossrides may be justifiably over-powered, DOTE is just a game-breaker. Honestly, I reckon we should try to come up with the ultimate DOTE deck as a community project, just as an experiment to see how much we can break the game, for the trolulz. Much like Pun-Pun the Kobold for D&D 3.5, with his infinite stats and reach that even goes to other dimensions.

Leader, however, is a step forward in the right direction to making crossrides less evil, seeing as instead of a simple power-drop, they can't attack at all. However, it still really bothers me that the ONLY thing you get for successfully crossriding is the power boost, which compared to their skills, is the lesser of the two. I feel they should be as splashable as they are. If you screw the crossride, then it should be a shit card, but if you pull it over it should become some of the best. More hit-and-miss, if you will.

Maybe, instead of gaining the power while the crossed unit is in the soul, you should get it if you ride on it. So you can't just soulcharge or ride over on a different unit.
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Mizuki

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:44

by giving everything a crossride you're promoting over-centralization of the metagame.

You're promoting that every deck MUST run cross-ride, or anti-cross ride to stay competitive. You're shutting down a vast majority of the card pool for every deck, and creating a stale game.

This is bad game balancing 101.
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Nysonin609

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:51

Mizuki, you are completely correct. I didn't think of it that way. I guess the only real solution then is to just nerf the crossrides as they come to English. I wouldn't really mind them if they only got the +2k on their turn, or if DOTE loses Twin Drive, or if MLB only gets the +1 Crit when you do the battle skill to add them to soul, and made the power bonus the only passive ability, and only on their turn.
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Mizuki

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:56

The correct answer is for crossrides to not be legal.
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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 17:58

Mizuki wrote:
by giving everything a crossride you're promoting over-centralization of the metagame.

You're promoting that every deck MUST run cross-ride, or anti-cross ride to stay competitive. You're shutting down a vast majority of the card pool for every deck, and creating a stale game.

This is bad game balancing 101.

Yep, pretty much everyone has picked up on that. That's how blatantly obvious it is to card balancing. You don't even need to be a pro TCG game maker or businessman or anything to know that this is bad for the game.
Given the Western mentality as well, where there is pretty much no such thing as casual play, it's gonna be crossrides everywhere. That's why YGO is starting to lose a lot of steam, out of a cardpool of 5000+ cards on 300 of them see any use. Not to mention that YGO's power creep is off the charts.
Nysonin609 wrote:
Mizuki, you are completely correct. I didn't think of it that way. I guess the only real solution then is to just nerf the crossrides as they come to English. I wouldn't really mind them if they only got the +2k on their turn, or if DOTE loses Twin Drive, or if MLB only gets the +1 Crit when you do the battle skill to add them to soul, and made the power bonus the only passive ability, and only on their turn.
One issue with nerfing the English versions of Crossrides though, is that right now, English players can happily play against Asian players with no issues at all. Changing the effects of one region splits them into essentially 2 very different card pools with vastly different play styles. Obviously, play style will differ between regions due to attitudes, but essentially making that mandatory is also another no-no.
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Nysonin609

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 18:01

The problem with that is if they change the Japenese format as well. I know this forum is strictly English Format, but one thing I hated about Yu-Gi-Oh was that whenever I managed to finish a deck, after spending so much time, effort, and money on it, it was usually limited, or banned. Then it became a hunt for the new cards to replace the others with. I like Bushiroad (a bit less after poking around on the forum) for making the game as balanced as possible (up until BT05) and thus, only limiting Barcgal due to him being overused. There isn't much that I can think of that won't screw over everyone that spent so much money on their Crossride decks. This wouldn't be an issue if they were banned on release, or BT05 came out in English closer to the Japan release. Also, most companies have a hard time banning famous cards, along with main-character cards (BLS for anyone that played yugioh). Suggestions?
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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 18:12

Oh, God. Don't even get me started on Barcgal. Any time people say Barcgal was overpowered, I have to resist the urge to bitch-slap them in the face. To Bushi's credit, they are actually caring about their customer base a lot more than Konami ever have. They're talking with us directly, making cards clear and balancing them as well as they can. It's really this upcoming booster, BT09, where things are starting to show cracks. I'm not really counting the original Crossrides because not everyone plays them at the moment. They aren't as prominent yet and I'm including the entire card pool.

I hope we don't have to resort to a banlist. I reckon they can just errata them the way they have done for Garmore and Dark King.
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Nysonin609

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 18:28

I feel like errata is the best solution, however BT05 Crossrides have been out a bit too long and I feel there is no way that can be done without making them as a company look horrible. It seems they have three options

1) Erreta, but this may not work do to reasons above

2) Ban list, however that either screws over Japenese players or seperates the two comunities

3) Different Effects, this doesn't look to bad, however puts a huge gap inbetween the two formats.

Each of these has its pros an cons. Also, I agree that Barcgal was not over powered, simply over used. He makes you run stand triggers in a deck where they don't belong, and thins your deck in a way that reduces your precious triggers. In casual matches, whenever I see someone pull out a stardust trumpeter, I kindly loan them my barcgal, and two Flogals, simply because most players realize he was restricted because they wanted to "spread the love" to other decks, not to hurt the "super broken" Royal Paladins
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 19:11

@AstoXx, it's already split. Bushiroad has no intention of ever allowing Eng and Jap cards to fight each other. They are on different card stock with different thicknesses, have different languages, and Bushiroad stated themselves that some of the cards have different printings of skills so that they are different (Crutch Rifle, Ezel, Viviane, etc). They do not want the Eng and Jap games to cross ever. It makes no sense, therefore, to argue that all cards should be printed identically in English and in Japanese. In fact, it makes for a nice opportunity for them to learn from mistakes and fix them when they go to English print.
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