HomeHome  V*Mundi Blog  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 So let's talk about crossrides!

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
AuthorMessage
AstoXx

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 19:47

In that case then, we can only hope that by the time BT05 rolls around, they've listened to us.
That way, we can continue to enjoy this game that we clearly all love and continue to try to push the our skills and the level of the game.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mizuki

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 20:28

I've already given up on Vanguard. I'll keep my deck, and play on skype/locally, but this is the end of the road for me.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
PureCray

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 20:44

AstoXx wrote:
Crossrides IMPROVING balance?

...Isn't that an oxymoron?
What? Yes of course they improve balance. Right now it's so easy to make like 18k or higher columns and those extra numbers just go to waste. There are too many ways to make 16k+ so there's no skill in getting a 16k column. If you make everything 18k, it makes the game a lot tighter and raising the 15k guard zone to 23k offense mark means that 15k guard is much rarer, meaning less people get to just abuse shit anymore.

Tell me something, do YOU like a game where Palamedes just demolishes anything? Do you like how Duke can just stand and rape your face? What about the upcoming Zeal? If Zeal comes, he's going to be a broken Soul Saver Dragon. Wouldn't you at least want something that can hold up against him? Crossrides balance the game and make things much tighter, requiring more strategy than mindlessly slapping crap down like before.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mizuki

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 20:57

I like a game where I have access to pretty much the entire card pool.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lockon Stratos

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 21:40

Hey, what cards are the ones that REALLY get hurt by Crossrides? I'm wondering, as it would help me get a better idea on my opinion of them. Although, now nobody jump on me for this, but PureCray is actually making a good bit of sense, especially with the path that Bushiroad is taking.

Unrelated to the above, but I think this Crossride explosion is really going to help OTT the most. I mean, think about it, OTT have THE greatest ability to draw in the game, as well as having VERY good soulmanipulation, at least on the charging end. So, they actually could just flip the bird to prescribed Crossrde builds, and run other G3's, you know, like Tsukuyomi, which I think will be the base of most future Goddess of the Sun decks. But wait, there's more. With Amaterasu getting this boost, a card that appears in pretty much EVERY OTT deck anyway, even if you don't run the Crossride, you can make your opponent think you are. This will cause them to misplay, preparing their 18k columns instead of shooting for 21k as they normally would, making their rearguards easier to guard. Now the second one is more Psychological rather than actual advantage, but hey, advantage is advantage.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Epideme

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 23:20

Aqua Force get shit on by them pretty hard but I'm 99% sure that they'll get something to help them with that in BT09
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-01, 23:28

Epideme wrote:
Aqua Force get shit on by them pretty hard but I'm 99% sure that they'll get something to help them with that in BT09

He's just cherry picking. And he never substantiates the claims that he makes such as Duke or Palamedes being worthy of the title "broken" nor substantiates the claim that 18k columns are so "tight" to make. Even if you do, it's basically all vanilla for most decks that aren't crossrides. Aqua Force get shit on them because everything does. And if his argument really is that those cards are evil, then the solution is "Let's introduce an even bigger evil to cover up the little ones!". And now you have shit like Tier 1 - Crossrides, Tier 2 - (what PureCray claims is broken) and Tier 3 - The entire rest of the card library.

I have a hard time taking him seriously though.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
meeb

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 00:26

Nysonin609 wrote:
I mentioned this on the blog, and was linked here. I'm just wondering, Alice, what is your opinion on the new BT09 Crossrides? I feel like they balance out the game a bit, though wold have prefered no crossrides at all.

Going to post my thoughts.

Yes it does rebalance the game in a sense, by shifting the metagame from 11k max to 13k max. 12k attackers will be given to every clan, and one crossride minimum will become the baseline for viability. 13K becomes the new 11k, and a lot of older cards become invalidated.

However, this isn't the only downside. Many of the new crossrides seem to have LB5 abilities that are game enders on the level of Stil Vampir. Platinum Ezel for example gives +1 stage to every RG. A 10k vanguard becomes a virtual 0k vanguard if you have a full field. It seems clear to me that the advantage is given to whichever player crossrides first, which will generally be whichever player goes first. I think the game just gave a clear advantage based on turn order that it didnt have before.

AstoXx wrote:
I think it's well established that while some other crossrides may be justifiably over-powered, DOTE is just a game-breaker. Honestly, I reckon we should try to come up with the ultimate DOTE deck as a community project, just as an experiment to see how much we can break the game, for the trolulz. Much like Pun-Pun the Kobold for D&D 3.5, with his infinite stats and reach that even goes to other dimensions.

Leader, however, is a step forward in the right direction to making crossrides less evil, seeing as instead of a simple power-drop, they can't attack at all. However, it still really bothers me that the ONLY thing you get for successfully crossriding is the power boost, which compared to their skills, is the lesser of the two. I feel they should be as splashable as they are. If you screw the crossride, then it should be a shit card, but if you pull it over it should become some of the best. More hit-and-miss, if you will.

Maybe, instead of gaining the power while the crossed unit is in the soul, you should get it if you ride on it. So you can't just soulcharge or ride over on a different unit.

I very much disagree with Leader being a balancing factor.

It isn't like hybrid decks are exceptionally common or exceptionally powerful. Leader is basically encouraging you to not make a hybrids in a game where very few people did so anyway... its fake balance. It is like if a card had a skill that said "while this card is on the field, you may not punch yourself in the testicles."

Gee thanks, I wouldn't ever want to punch myself in the testicles.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nysonin609

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 00:35

The problem with LB:5 is the same problem with megablasts. Sure it's doable, but in many situations, getting.a.relaible 5 damage is difficult. If you block the vanguard, your opponent just picks of rear guards or adds crits to them. This means you have to get lucky and your opponent doesn't drove check a crit (bit shady with most decks maxing out on crits) or to not have rearguards, meaning there will likely be a hefty damage gap between both players. Is it doable? Yes. Is it easy to do? No. Is it worth it? Its to situational. Though all crossrides are broken, this one, similar to PB&J Overlord, is really only good for reliability and defense.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
meeb

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 00:40

Nysonin609 wrote:
The problem with LB:5 is the same problem with megablasts. Sure it's doable, but in many situations, getting.a.relaible 5 damage is difficult. If you block the vanguard, your opponent just picks of rear guards or adds crits to them. This means you have to get lucky and your opponent doesn't drove check a crit (bit shady with most decks maxing out on crits) or to not have rearguards, meaning there will likely be a hefty damage gap between both players. Is it doable? Yes. Is it easy to do? No. Is it worth it? Its to situational. Though all crossrides are broken, this one, similar to PB&J Overlord, is really only good for reliability and defense.

If they focus on attacking your RGs and only attack your VG with their VG you'll win out as long as you replace the RGs every turn and focus entirely on swinging at their vanguard.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Deingel

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 00:44

Okay, let me be the Devil's Advocate here, and make you guys think for once.

Crossrides have 13k Power, boo hoo. So what? Bushiroad has been releasing that that gain power themselves, may it be Executioner or Manaywadan Clones. 18k lines are not as problematic as when Crossrides were released in BT05, cause well, Palamedes, Burning Horn and Masquerade were the only cards able to hit the 18k base, with out needing to be boosted by the 8k Vanilla. That's why Royal Pals, Kagero and Shadow Paladins were good those days, not because they had cross rides, but because they can hit crossrides with out having to waste time with the proper set-up.

So what if Bushiroad released RG's that can hit the Crossrides? The VG's still can't do anything!

NO, that's why Bushiroad created Limit Break. LImit Break in a sense was created to balance out the problem of Crossrides, making 23k + power possible. That's why Limit Break + 5000k power is the most seen Limit Break in the game, it's just for that reason. Also, Limit Breakers have been released that can even hit more that 23k, reaching the even realms of 33k.

Limit Break was the solution to the problem. Limit Break was created to create cards for clans for them to stay relevant in the meta, whilst not having to print Crossrides for everyone.


Crossrides is a game mechanic that may be "strong" in theory, but still balanced in the actual game. 13k in theory makes columns useless, but really now, since when has a game not undergone a complete meta change? You guys are crying in your beds, thinking how Silent Tom and other decks are no longer relevant. Well, okay. Remove them in the deck, or keep them, but in minimum numbers, or continue playing the game the way YOU want it to be.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 02:15

Actually, Deingel, it sounds like you're the one who isn't thinking.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 04:47

PureCray wrote:

What? Yes of course they improve balance. Right now it's so easy to make like 18k or higher columns and those extra numbers just go to waste. There are too many ways to make 16k+ so there's no skill in getting a 16k column.

Of course there isn't any. It takes BRAINS. If you're not trying to shoot for 16k unless you know the opponent's using a deck with no access to an 11k Vanguard, you are terrible at the game. And how does one shoot for 18k without vanilla-ising your deck? Very few cards have room to play around with their own gimmick as well as gain any power boosts.

Quote :
If you make everything 18k, it makes the game a lot tighter and raising the 15k guard zone to 23k offense mark means that 15k guard is much rarer, meaning less people get to just abuse shit anymore.

And those few are the CROSSRIDES. Everyone else can do fuck all while crossrides make every other deck their bitch. I am totally cool with one deck using a gimmick to abuse (within reason). But the reason crossrides invalidate everything else is because most strategies involve using their skills to arrange good columns while simultaneously trying to bring out their own unique strategy. Take Granblue for instance. Swapping your Rear Guards using the Drop Zone helps to make the 16k while taking advantage of weak plusses like Steerman and Cutlass. Crossrides force the opponent to abandon this in favour of numbers.

There is no skill in crossrides; you say you don't like abusing but you still enjoy the thought of invalidating every other deck that isn't your own with a 13k body WITH a skill still attached to it. How is that fair to anyone else?

Quote :
Tell me something, do YOU like a game where Palamedes just demolishes anything? Do you like how Duke can just stand and rape your face? What about the upcoming Zeal? If Zeal comes, he's going to be a broken Soul Saver Dragon. Wouldn't you at least want something that can hold up against him? Crossrides balance the game and make things much tighter, requiring more strategy than mindlessly slapping crap down like before.

...Except I could just attack Palamedes and either the opponent drops a ton of guard just to keep it or it dies. Either one works for me. Duke...is really not scary. I have until Late Game (which is when a smart player should use it) to set myself up to protect myself; I could force a lot of guards with big columns and Criticals, giving them less incentive to use Duke because of all the minusing.

Zeal doesn't seem too bad either. He's a Rank 3 Ride chain, and is like Lox and Ergodiel; he doesn't make up for minuses on-ride. His Limit Break is manageable because you can only use that skill so many times so the trick is just to live for that long, just like Soul Saver Dragon. Zeal does not require I change anything. Crossrides do.

Any amateur can abuse the Crossrides' 13k. There is no thought going into using them at all. They sit there, with their skills threatening you, and there's fuck all you can do to negate that. It's a constant threat, unlike Zeal. Crossrides mean you can still afford to 'mindlessly slap down crap'. You shouldn't, but you get my point.


Last edited by Lich_Lord_Fortissimo on 2012-11-09, 10:27; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 05:20

Deingel wrote:
Okay, let me be the Devil's Advocate here, and make you guys think for once.

Crossrides have 13k Power, boo hoo. So what? Bushiroad has been releasing that that gain power themselves, may it be Executioner or Manaywadan Clones. 18k lines are not as problematic as when Crossrides were released in BT05, cause well, Palamedes, Burning Horn and Masquerade were the only cards able to hit the 18k base, with out needing to be boosted by the 8k Vanilla. That's why Royal Pals, Kagero and Shadow Paladins were good those days, not because they had cross rides, but because they can hit crossrides with out having to waste time with the proper set-up.

And leaving me with no room whatsoever to play around with the specific gimmick of the deck, which kind of invalidates its purpose. Feel free to poke around the threads regarding crossrides. I absolutely garantee that every argument you make will be addressed WITH facts as to why your argument is stupid and you're stupid.
http://vmundi.forumotion.com/t110-crossride-discussion

There IS no way to fight crossrides without either another crossride or making your deck dedicated to nothing but hitting those numbers. It just turns into a boring competition of muscle, with no skill involved whatsoever.

Quote :
So what if Bushiroad released RG's that can hit the Crossrides? The VG's still can't do anything!

NO, that's why Bushiroad created Limit Break. LImit Break in a sense was created to balance out the problem of Crossrides, making 23k + power possible. That's why Limit Break + 5000k power is the most seen Limit Break in the game, it's just for that reason. Also, Limit Breakers have been released that can even hit more that 23k, reaching the even realms of 33k.

Limit Break was the solution to the problem. Limit Break was created to create cards for clans for them to stay relevant in the meta, whilst not having to print Crossrides for everyone.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh I'm sorry, but how many 5k Limit Breakers are there? Kiriel, Garmore, Thunder Break, Apt, Cocytus, and (for weirdos) Spiderman. 6. In a game involving 22 Clans, 2 of which aren't finished. You see the problem? Not every deck has them, and not every deck wants to RUN them (Thunder Break sucks). And please, feels free to post ACTUAL tangible proof that 5k Limit Breakers are as common as you think. Or as effective as you think. Can the Limit Breakers force the opponent to hit for absurd columns back? No, because they lack defence in compensation for offence. Fuck crossrides and their defence.

The Vanguard hitting the numbers was never a problem anyway. Crossrides screw the crap out of every rear guard strategy dependant on 16k. Find me a rearguard exclusive booster that's universal and doesn't involve a mad cost and then we'll talk.

Quote :
Crossrides is a game mechanic that may be "strong" in theory, but still balanced in the actual game. 13k in theory makes columns useless, but really now, since when has a game not undergone a complete meta change? You guys are crying in your beds, thinking how Silent Tom and other decks are no longer relevant. Well, okay. Remove them in the deck, or keep them, but in minimum numbers, or continue playing the game the way YOU want it to be.

Oh, fuck off. Every opinion posted by the smart people (Alice, the mods, etc) is down to the fact that they HAVE played against them before and have struggled every time, meaning they are actually broken as fuck in practice as well. Also, allow me to refer to 3XXXDDD's stance on theory vs practice:

Quote :
Because Theory isn't simply the the accumulation of evidence gathered by the scientific method of a controlled and repeated experiment (ie playtesting) only to further prove your hypothesis? Am I right or am I right? 8D

Problem here is when your saying "I don't like your argument because you are basing it on theory and not practice" is actually you saying "GIVE ME FALLACIOUS ANALOGIES". A stance like that will turn an argument into "MLB isn't a big deal, I beat him all the time" or "MLB is totally a big deal, he just has everything" and will end up with an argument completely devoid of evidenced facts and full of nothing more than stories.


Last edited by Lich_Lord_Fortissimo on 2012-11-19, 11:20; edited 3 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 05:53

Lich Lord laying down the hurt goddam.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
3XXXDDD
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 06:59

Nysonin609 wrote:
The problem with LB:5 is the same problem with megablasts. Sure it's doable, but in many situations, getting.a.relaible 5 damage is difficult.

WTF? No it isn't, you'll get to 5 Damage much more often than you'll get sacked by a critical on 4. The sack factor may go up with everybody getting a third critical but even then.

Deingel wrote:
Okay, let me be the Devil's Advocate here, and make you guys think for once.

Crossrides have 13k Power, boo hoo. So what? Bushiroad has been releasing that that gain power themselves, may it be Executioner or Manaywadan Clones. 18k lines are not as problematic as when Crossrides were released in BT05, cause well, Palamedes, Burning Horn and Masquerade were the only cards able to hit the 18k base, with out needing to be boosted by the 8k Vanilla. That's why Royal Pals, Kagero and Shadow Paladins were good those days, not because they had cross rides, but because they can hit crossrides with out having to waste time with the proper set-up.

So you're going to ignore that Stage 3 (columns that force a minimum of 15000 guard) are now no longer accessible AT ALL? This further leads people playing Cross-rides just to screw your Opponents offensive lines into half or whatever the actual percent may be. It's an obvious advantage without any downside at all. I mean like, I could play Angel Feathers and they have their strengths but they also have their weaknesses (not the best early game). Cross-rides don't really have this, partially because they are relatively vanilla decks which can always start strong.



Quote :
NO, that's why Bushiroad created Limit Break. LImit Break in a sense was created to balance out the problem of Crossrides, making 23k + power possible. That's why Limit Break + 5000k power is the most seen Limit Break in the game, it's just for that reason. Also, Limit Breakers have been released that can even hit more that 23k, reaching the even realms of 33k.

Limit Break was the solution to the problem. Limit Break was created to create cards for clans for them to stay relevant in the meta, whilst not having to print Crossrides for everyone.

Well this is absolute bollocks because again it presents the problem of CENTRALIZATION. You're being forced to choose between Crossride or Power Breaker (not all Limit Breaks gain power, e.g Duke so they shouldn't be involved as part of the discussion). Not only that but Vanguard, to the naked eye, is a game of individual strategies attempting to be followed out to their fullest extent. It isn't so much a game of screwing over your Opponent with counters like MTG or YGO and so the Counter argument fails here even more than it does there. Why should we need to deck counters when it's irrelevant to our decks "gimmick"?


Quote :
Crossrides is a game mechanic that may be "strong" in theory, but still balanced in the actual game. 13k in theory makes columns useless, but really now, since when has a game not undergone a complete meta change? You guys are crying in your beds, thinking how Silent Tom and other decks are no longer relevant. Well, okay. Remove them in the deck, or keep them, but in minimum numbers, or continue playing the game the way YOU want it to be.

ITT: People not understanding what theory means.

Vanguard isn't any other game. The problem isn't a meta shift, I'm sure many can accept that perfect balance is bit of a dream and that there will be different decks at the supposed "top" but the problem with the 13000 is because it shakes up the established underlying balance of the entire game. Those plain old 8K + 10K CB1 +3K columns could work very well in the game as it is now but once the 13K Units come over that established balance is ruined.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 07:04

A "Theory" is a framework that describes a phenomenon by using collections of facts, evidence, data, and math that provides a legitimate basis for making predictions. That is, a Theory is scientific by its very nature and definition. It's not a random ass-pull you did in your head. That's to anyone who may be still under the impression that "Theory" is to be outright rejected. It inherently includes practice.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Deingel

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 08:12

Alice wrote:
A "Theory" is a framework that describes a phenomenon by using collections of facts, evidence, data, and math that provides a legitimate basis for making predictions. That is, a Theory is scientific by its very nature and definition. It's not a random ass-pull you did in your head. That's to anyone who may be still under the impression that "Theory" is to be outright rejected. It inherently includes practice.


Yes, that is the definition of a theory, but remember, a theory still lacks testing to be considered true. Even if a theory is considered by the general public, it is still subject to negation. At most, a theory may prove true at the first few testing, but the results may change in the course of time. If they have been proven true, by means of multiple experiments and testing, then they turn into laws.


During BT05, Crossrides were OP. They had no counters, and other clans had no chance way of hitting the 13k marks for anything higher than a 10k guard, and even getting to 10k is a chore.




Fast forward to BT06, clans were given newer toys to play with, which are able to hit 13k magic numbers without tedious set-up.

How does this compute about theory?

Well, during BT05, Crossrides were the deck to use. It's either you use them or you wasted your time joining a tournament.During this time, "Crossrides are OP" was no longer considered a theory, and was on the verge of becoming a law.

But with new cards released, Crossrides no longer became "the deck" to beat, it turned into "a deck" to beat. This can be shown in the current tournament toppings in Japan, wherein only DOTE has shown to be still relevant in this meta, while MLB and PBO have completely fallen out of style.


Now, where does this all lead to?


This shows that Crossride decks are no longer the OP sons of b***** they used to be, due to the many counters or more consistent strategies given to other clans.


Personally, I belive half or if not, most of the people here are not against crossrides in general, but are against DOTE.


Time and time again, DOTE has been shown in forums, blogs and especially tournament tops to be the biggest problem since the conception of Crossrides. DOTE given an extraordinary skill of having to Twin Drive twice a turn, and put into an already decent deck, well, we see the problem there.

DOTE is OP, no doubt. The mere psychological effect of seeing 2 open counterblasts whilst your opponent has DOTE as his Vanguard, can make you guard for too much, just to see that your opponent didn't even have another DOTE in hand. Coupled with the raw advantage grinding with Kagero, the deck was beyond good; It was the single most consistent deck in Vanguard.

As far as I see it, most Anti-cross Ride Campaigns all boil down to a single card, DOTE: the single most OP card released, and breaks all layed down rules in Vanguard

TL;DR: Turn this into an Anti-DOTE campaign, since most of the people here are just concerned with DOTE,and could care less about the others.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 08:20

Quote :
If they have been proven true, by means of multiple experiments and testing, then they turn into laws.
Not even close. That is not how Science works. A hypothesis is an educated guess based on observation. A Theory summarizes a hypothesis (or group) and has been repeatedly tested. These are extremely sound and backed usually by multiple bodies of fact, corroborating evidence, and sometimes calculation. All Theories can be disproven (falsifiability) but are not assumed to be false since there must be positive evidence on the side of the Theory for it to be considered as such. You wouldn't just dismiss the Theory of Evolution because you think "no one tested it" and you wouldn't dismiss the Theory of Gravity because you think it doesn't work in practice.

A Law is similar to a Theory in that it generalizes a set of observations (rather than summarizing a hypothesis). But while it also works on a solid framework from a macro level, a Law is completely different in that it laws only explain things but don't describe them. They tell us a lot less of the "why" something happens and only focus on "how". We know Newton's Laws work. But they don't explain why they work. Einstein's Relativities are not called Laws, they're called Theories because they both explain the how and why.

There is a difference. And a Theory yet remains not something you ass-pull in your head.

Furthermore, everything you posted were baseless assumptions and assertions that you never substantiated.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
3XXXDDD
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 08:47

Just a note on the Anti-DOTE suggestion. Ji Endo is simply a King among Kings, You remove Ji Endo the next cross-ride down will come up and replace it (quite likely Ezel unless we get something worse). We will still have the big problem still regarding the static 13000. You might have diluted the problem but you aren't solving it.

As for PBO; Do you realize the support for Shadow Paladin is still awful tier? PBO sucks not because PBO sucks but because SP pretty much suck in general. This also prevents SP getting any more support lest SP with PBO becomes a proper threat.

Again, I refer back to King of Kings, currently if you're going to play a cross-ride, you play Ji Endo because basically he's currently the one cross-ride to rule them all! So essentially it'll just end up like this

Ji Endo gets nerfed
Ezel overtakes
Ezel gets nerfed
MLB overtakes
MLB gets nerfed
PBO overtakes
PBO gets nerfed
Yet the core problem that these all share, the static 13000, still exists.
Something like that anyway, the order there isn't indicative or trying to suggest anything, just showing the general idea.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
meeb

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 09:58

Deingel wrote:
stuff.

The key thing you are missing is that crossrides force the metagame to revolve entirely around them. They release 3 (3 out of a huge library of cards) with a potential static 12-13k, and then the metagame revolves entirely around them. Then they are forced to release 12k G2 attackers for each clan, and 12k G3 attackers, all for the sake of hitting 18k easier. Then they make a limit break mechanic, giving a few cards a +5k for absolutely nothing in order to help make it easier to hit crossrides.

Then BT09 hits and more and more crossrides are coming out so that other clans can compete.

The game will rebalance itself around crossrides, but at the cost of older decks being severely hampered. Decks will also stagnate incredibly, as each clan with a crossride will practically be forced to run it. And every clan will NEED to use 12k G2 attackers.

The game is being taken in a direction that several of us are not happy with. It isn't hard to understand.

Also I never get why people think theories with sufficient evidence turn into laws. That isn't how it works. Is our science education really that bad?

It is called germ theory, not germ law. And there's a TON of evidence for the germ theory of disease.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
AstoXx

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 11:06

Wow, I go to college and suddenly the post count explodes. Let's try and address what we can, shall we?

@meeb: When I said "Leader" was a step in the right direction, I didn't mean it was good as it is. If it was me, I'd make it so it couldn't attack unless the lesser unit was in the soul. To me, crossrides should be flipping between being the best cards in the game and the WORST cards in the game. They should not be even remotely splashable and right now, they are far too easy to just blindly shove into a deck that contains the ridable unit and still use effectively.

@PureCray: All of your arguments presented so far have been far too similar to the signature call of those people who play in a card game and say that anything that isn't something they like doesn't require "skill". Skill, when it comes to it's context within a TCG, is actually a lot more nuanced than what people (like you) throw around. Slapping down cards to hit for certain numbers doesn't take skill, no. But deciding what one to use for their skill does. What do you attack? How do you scale your field so that each column, while hitting both at Stage 2, synergises with each other? For instance if I had both Death Army Guy and Death Army Lady in my hand and only my VG column at the moment, I'd make a column with BOTH Death Armies together and attack with them first. That way, a single Grade 3 within my drive check nets me a whole extra column. You've made a Grade 3 work better than a Stand Trigger for that column, and then you just stand and power up your OTHER RG, preferably one with an on-hit skill. Skill in a TCG is about analysing both the cards you and your opponent have, and how to maximise your advantage in your turn and lessen theirs. It's a hell of a lot more subtle.

@Nysonin609: Wasn't the whole point of Limit Break the possibility of having it for different damage levels? Limit Break 5 is simply the natural progression from what we have now. And as for getting a reliable 5 damage, you mention that they can sack a Crit on 4 damage and kill you off. Well, what happens if they drive a Crit when you're on 3 damage? They attack, you go to 5, you get LB5. Or they fear your LB5 and kill of your RG's instead. Great, you made that Crit impotent because it didn't score you more damage. Unless a Crit actually nets that +1 in damage potential, it's only effect is the +5k boost. At least with a Stand in that situation, you could decide to then attack again or a interceptor, resulting in 2 situations. They lose shielding from dropping guard or their interceptor, or they take the damage meaning that previous guard was nullified. And if they have 1 attack left when you've hit LB5, guard it. Even if it drops your advantage quite a bit, because like you said, LB5 are game-ender skills and if you've played smartly, firing that skill of ONCE should net you the win because you'll both likely be in late game at this point.

Not to mention, the self-damager cards. OK, so 4 damage is more reliable? I'm at 4 damage, which by your premise is quite easy to achieve. I throw down a unit with a LB5 skill. Now I can use both LB ranges! I use my unit with a LB4 skill usable as a RG. That gives me advantage in some way, maybe through adjusting my columns better or pulling a strong unit or something. Then, if I can afford it, of course, I use my LB5! Now, we've got a game-ending skill active on top of my LB4 on top of hard-hitting units! And if I don't kill you that turn, I get to shuffle back in a trigger and I'm only on 4 damage. Good luck hitting my 13k VG easily after I just devastated you with my crazy plays. And I still got cards to guard with as well. And if I got a trigger during that last turn and you survived? That's a 10k guard. With ease, a decent player could live that turn, be on 5 damage and maybe pop that LB5 skill off AGAIN. 2 LB5 skills! We can clearly see that LB5 is not meant for more than one use, and yet, here it is.

@every crossride supporter: So far, all the mentions of 13k power that you guys have made have been about ATTACKING at 13k power. OK, yes that's big. We know. But it's not that much of an issue. Palamedes hits for that, yeah. Other cards do to, but when it comes to attacking them, they're not 13k any more. You have to drop a lot more guard to keep it on the field. The issue is that it's 13k DEFENSIVELY. That's what we keep going on about. Not the attacking aspect, but the fact that attacking against it is 13k.
So, let's play a fantasy game in our minds, shall we? You are my opponent, I have a 13k crossride unit as my VG, +3k rearguard and just a basic vanilla column (10k with an 8k booster). You also have a +3k reag-guard to hit my VG with, but YOU aren't running crossrides. As you can see, we represent EACH OTHER'S arguments about cross-rides. But let's see whether your non-crossride deck can cope...

I attack your +3k unit. You have 2 options available to you. Guard that unit, keeping it alive so you can still hit my 13k VG next turn, or let it die meaning you can't hit my VG unless you call another. By guarding, you've now made my 13k easier to hit with. You have less shield now, because you wasted it trying to keep your +3k RG alive, just so you could even remotely hope to do damage to me next turn. That means that when it comes to my 13k VG attacking (which I'd do last, to force out even more guard from you) I can more easily hit and get off some nutty-ass skill. Then of course I Twin Drive, meaning it's possible for me to pierce your guarding anyway, and it being a VG you've either overguarded or null guarded.
Still, both options work in my favour in some way. You lost a null guard and a most likely a Grade 3 that can't shield (oops! they goes that spare +3k RG to replace the one I kill off!) or you lost a shitton of cards meaning your hand is depleted, so on my next turn, you can guard even less. I can keep applying pressure until it's at the point where all the cards in your hand are just going straight to the drop because you're busy guarding with them. That means you can't guard my attack to kill your +3k RG. That means you have no way of reliably hitting my 13k VG. And of course, I'm keeping my hand and RG's for guarding because you are finding harder to hit me than I am to hit you and I can guard for less as well, so I'm using less cards when I guard anyway. Eventually, the advantage gap tilts in my favour quickly and it becomes clear that I've now got complete and utter control over the tempo of the game. And if you DIDN'T guard against that first attack on your +3k RG, well then we just get to this point a lot quicker.

No matter what you have done, it doesn't hinder me all that much as I can quickly make the advantage back. I can wash anything you might do to me. You, however, exponentially start to struggle with each turn you manage to stay alive, losing more and more resources until you can't do jack-shit.

And before you say anything, this is basically how EVERY game I've both played and watched (and that makes about 100+ just by myself) that is crossride versus non-crossride ended.

Yep, I guess Crossrides really aren't that bad.
And now for the flames...


Last edited by AstoXx on 2012-11-02, 12:00; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
meeb

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 11:50

AstoXx wrote:
Wow, I go to college and suddenly the post count explodes. Let's try and address what we can, shall we?

@meeb: When I said "Leader" was a step in the right direction, I didn't mean it was good as it is. If it was me, I'd make it so it couldn't attack unless the lesser unit was in the soul. To me, crossrides should be flipping between being the best cards in the game and the WORST cards in the game

Except its a non-step and there is no evidence that they will take it any further. Leader does nothing to balance them.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dark5ide

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 12:07

Going off what asto was saying, what makes Kagero in particular more dangerous with a cross ride is their clan's ability to blow up rearguards. meaning if you have a cross ride, and they dont, you can even take away the tools they need to boost into striking distance.

Because, in the end, this game is about card advantage. The hand in this game is used as defense. The more cards in hand, the better your defense is. If you have to spend more gas from your hand not only to defend from a naturally larger attacker, but also to replenish the field because they blow up your boosters, you'd be a one-legged man at an asskicking contest.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lockon Stratos

avatar


PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-11-02, 14:36

Alright, but what about Daiyusha? Now you see, this is where things get funny. You see, the problem with DOTE is the fact that he's part of a clan that ALREADY has a very good advantage engine, and he just takes that and makes it worse, along with the fact that the only REAL restriction on him on the deck building end of things, is that you have to run Dragonic Overlord, which most Kad decks do anyway. On the other hand, we have Daiyusha, a card whose clan does NOT have an effective advantage engine, meaning that instead of being a COMPLETELY inpenetrable fortress, he just makes the guard you already would have go a little farther. Couple this with the fact that in order to use him, you have to build a deck COMPLETELY devoted to him, as his previous form isn't all that good, having another unit that does essentially the same job, as well as his Limit Break, which requires a specific set of cards, which limits your ability to splash in any kind of draw abilities.

This actually brings me to my opinion on Crossrides. By itself, that 13k is merely a challenge, but when coupled with either an effect that is also AMAZING, or part of a clan that REALLY let's you abuse your amazing defense, well, then we have DOTE. On the other hand, when it's effect is, while nice, not really game-breaking, and being part of a clan whose winning image doesn't really have anything to do with Card Advantage, which means, NO retiring RG and no really fantastic draw effects, well, then you have Great Daiyusha.

You see, you people haven't even SEEN a TRULY broken Crossride. You guys are so scared of Ezel, but the wench who's REALLY going to steal the show is Amaterasu, and I can make that statement knowing ONLY the fact that she will have 13k defense.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   

Back to top Go down
 
So let's talk about crossrides!
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 4 of 11Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Moved: http://v-mundi.com - VMundi :: Newbie Lounge-
Jump to: