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Alice
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PostSubject: Format synch   2012-12-23, 16:34

So if you haven't seen yet, Bushiroad has announced all the EN releases for Q1 and Q2 2013. And yet again, we will not be having a synched metagame with JP (however, International will finally be synched with Singapore!).

But I want to talk about this because it's a hot-button issue lately. Many people have been screaming for Bushiroad to synch the EN and JP formats despite Bushiroad's distinct lack of ever announcing such a thing, and indeed quite the opposite—making statements such as wanting the EN and JP cards to be different so they cannot be used against each other or in the same deck, or stating that it would be infeasible to do at present. So someone somewhere has gotten it into their heads that Bushiroad not only wants to do this, but is doing it. Most likely because Set 6 was released out of order from Set 3. In hindsight, we can all tell that this was a way to avoid Royal Paladins and Oracles becoming broken. But back then a lot of people stated (without any sources) that it was to catch up English to Japanese. But what does that mean exactly? And why would we want that to happen?

Well, catching up the formats would mean that both have an identical pool of cards, just in different languages. Though the cards are on different stock so they still cannot be used together. So of course one of the reasons for catching up cannot be mixing collections or indeed, even fighting cross-format. The only reason that I can actually think of is having Japan's gigantic card pool. But English's card pool is already very large for a game that's only been out for a year, and as of February, we'll have 6 Trial Decks, 7 Booster Sets, and 2 Extra Booster sets. An absolutely mammoth task that Bushiroad INTL has undergone. Asking for more would not only be whiny, it would be ignorant of the logistics behind releasing a set.

People don't just get on a computer and replace the Japanese text with English words for each card in one night and call it a day. That's not how it works. You have a whole team (teams) of people who touch each card. First there are the translators which have to read everything and do both interpretive translations as well as exact translations, then make judgment calls on which ones are best to use. That takes a lot of time. You also have a cleaner who has to fix the original publication template for each card and ready it for English. They're not the same, the fonts, spacing, alignment and stuff for text is different. You also need a team of logicians that can determine if the English effect texts to the same job as in Japanese and there are no loop holes; this may not actually be a separate job position much less a team, but someone still has to do this, whoever it is. And allowing the translator to be that guy/girl, is a very bad idea since they're just supposed to be porting over the text, not shaping it logically. It's possible this job is done by the translator and QC fixes the logic though.

And that leads me to Quality Control. They have to check each card multiple times before prints can be run. If they don't, you get issues like Mermaid Idol Sedna missing her crit (evidence that they don't just change text), Crutch Rifle having an L in its name, Garmore saying "shuffle your Library" and Dark Lord of the Abyss missing the crucial "until end of turn" line; just as a few examples. And those are things that slipped through despite Bushiroad having a pretty crack team of QC thus far. But mere proofreading is not all QC has to do. The English game has a different meta due to the releases and International players can have a different mindset about cards. So they have to playtest each card to make sure they stack up to fairness and expectations. Crutch Rifle being an example of a card that, if they didn't QC and edit that text, NO ONE would have played it. With the English errata, it's actually usable.

All of this has oversight, administration, and deadlines. People have to communicate, share their work, and move all these files around too. Then you have the job or team responsible for factory relations. These are the people that make sure there is a product ready to go when their factory print can be run. Most actual printing itself is outsourced, but you still have a liaison. Your graphics team, web team, and other PR-related firms also have to be in the loop and up to date so they can create the new ads, box arts (if necessary), edit the news, and make public announcements (all vetted by legal first). THEN you have to sit on it until a release date. Assuming you're ahead of schedule and not behind or dead on.

So all of that can take a month or more of solid work from your team depending on the load. If it's a full set, probably a month. If it's a trial deck or two or an extra booster, probably a half-month (and some very happy employees).

Bushiroad did 12 months worth of solid work from Dec last year to Feb next year, which is 12 months in 14 months. That's barely any time off or any slow time. That indicates either a very large rotational team or a very dedicated and worked-like-a-dog team. Asking for more sets would be ludicrous.

So let's talk about how they could plan for future sets to eventually sync, since they can't just immediately put that on their to-do list.

The first thing that would have to happen is that the JP team would have to slow down, which means less releases and that directly translates into decreased sales. The optimal solution is to also speed up the EN team by hiring more, training them, and getting them into the work place. So even if we do see an attempt to sync, if they haven't already started, it's not going to start until Q3/4 2013 (look at the releases we just got, they're nowhere near the JP releases). Once they do sync, now you have to bake the EN and JP cards simultaneously. Well instantly, you have either a language, location, or feasibility barrier or some combination of all three. The EN team has to work off of the original creators on the JP team. This means you can't consolidate much of their work at all. So either every new release has to be delayed about 1 month (EN working time) or you have to stagger them out by a month (which you can argue is/isnot synched, whatever). In order to even approach this level of release scheduling, the JP team would have to get about twice as large. If not, they will either release sets half as fast, or half the quality and become Konami. Most sets are not created one to another. In most companies, sets are made about 3-6 months before they hit store shelves. And they often have multiple teams working on different sets, or the same large team working on two+ sets simultaneously.

TL;DR:
It would be a huge strain on Bushiroad to double their workload. They have seperate teams for this stuff because one can look at what the others do and change it. If they went to synched releases, they'd have to either: Double the time it takes to produce one set, OR, consolidate (FIRE) one team and have another do it. Which would ...double the length of time it takes for one set to come out so we get half the sets in the same given period of time.

Even if they could do the synch without any loss of quality or speed, or jobs you'd have another problem. Bushiroad would lose a ton of money. Because they would have to simply cancel whatever sets the jap team are currently working on, to switch over and translate EVERYTHING they currently have, remarket it, repackage it, and run english prints. They have to stop dead and go cold for months on end just to catch up

Even if you want this, this is a stupid concept. And unless someone can give me an actually good reason other than "I just want more cards", I'm going to keep considering it a stupid concept.

Edit: And I don't know of any mass-produced TCG where the OCG is synched. Not Yugioh, not Pokemon.


Last edited by Alice on 2012-12-23, 16:46; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Post Script)
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-23, 21:23

I don't think people generally mean identical release dates when they're talking synchronized formats though. Given how English release schedule is paced, it does seem like Bushiroad wants to eventually get us in pace with the Japanese format (i.e., only one release behind each time a new set comes out). I'm not really sure how that would not be feasible, even given what you've already put out here. After all, Bushiroad hardly releases a set the moment they actually finish the set- I imagine they're working at least a few months ahead.
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-23, 22:37

I doubt the meta would actually "synch".

Even with all these simultaneous releases, there is only so much the wallet can handle... I believe the Japanese market actually timed their releases well enough to let people accumulate enough capital to actually go on a pack whacking spree for about a month then let the people accumulate more over a time.

Pushing for a monthly release will just make players go on a selective purchase.

And unless most of the players actually have the base cards for the X rides from BT05, I doubt they would dominate immediately. GP has an absurdly strong foothold in almost every english community and converting them to Anti X-ride is definitely cheaper than building one bottom up.
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-23, 23:40

Alice wrote:
And unless someone can give me an actually good reason other than "I just want more cards", I'm going to keep considering it a stupid concept.

Edit: And I don't know of any mass-produced TCG where the OCG is synched. Not Yugioh, not Pokemon.

Is it wrong to want more cards? We're currently going to end up being 7 months behind Japan as far as releases go. 8 months once they release eb4 and 5 and skew it another month. It was nice being able to see the lists for set 6 and 7 slowly getting spoiled and having a reason to care, because we knew we'd soon be able to enjoy them as well. However now we get stuff like Plat Ezel, ZA BURRITO, and shiny gold Gancelot and we don't have a reason to care at all. We english players won't get to enjoy them for half a year. I don't want or expect them to completely sync up, but I had hoped they would hurry it up even just a little bit to have the releases be just a little closer together. Like you said, they also aren't synched up, but TCG Yu Gi Oh is only about 2 months behind and Pokemon is about 4 months behind. An 8 month delay is just silly by comparison.


Last edited by smellmybox on 2012-12-24, 00:00; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I can't count. It's even longer than I thought.)
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Traesive

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-23, 23:42

[quote="smellmybox"]
Alice wrote:
ZA BURRITO

I giggled.
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Pcyborg

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-24, 00:24

smellmybox wrote:
Alice wrote:
And unless someone can give me an actually good reason other than "I just want more cards", I'm going to keep considering it a stupid concept.

Edit: And I don't know of any mass-produced TCG where the OCG is synched. Not Yugioh, not Pokemon.

Is it wrong to want more cards? We're currently going to end up being 7 months behind Japan as far as releases go. 8 months once they release eb4 and 5 and skew it another month. It was nice being able to see the lists for set 6 and 7 slowly getting spoiled and having a reason to care, because we knew we'd soon be able to enjoy them as well. However now we get stuff like Plat Ezel, ZA BURRITO, and shiny gold Gancelot and we don't have a reason to care at all. We english players won't get to enjoy them for half a year. I don't want or expect them to completely sync up, but I had hoped they would hurry it up even just a little bit to have the releases be just a little closer together. Like you said, they also aren't synched up, but TCG Yu Gi Oh is only about 2 months behind and Pokemon is about 4 months behind. An 8 month delay is just silly by comparison.

Comparing VG to Pokemon and YGO is not really fair considering that they've been around WAY longer. VG was only released like 2 years back. Asking for a faster release is too much.

Be thankful for the limited cardpool. If you ever tried in a Japanese meta only tournament its pretty much a mono environment. English is still ok considering that GP doesnt have a mono VG and there is still variety.

Besides, if Bushiroad does release all these I doubt they could ever reach the intended sales target. The last thing I want from them is a premature death due to low sales count.
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smellmybox

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-24, 00:36

[quote="Pcyborg"][quote="smellmybox"]
Alice wrote:
Comparing VG to Pokemon and YGO is not really fair considering that they've been around WAY longer. VG was only released like 2 years back. Asking for a faster release is too much.

Be thankful for the limited cardpool. If you ever tried in a Japanese meta only tournament its pretty much a mono environment. English is still ok considering that GP doesnt have a mono VG and there is still variety.

Besides, if Bushiroad does release all these I doubt they could ever reach the intended sales target. The last thing I want from them is a premature death due to low sales count.

I know it's not fair, but since Alice brought them up, I wanted to as well. 8 months just feels like a ridiculous amount of time even if we exclude the fact it's 4x as long as Yu Gi Oh's wait time.

And while I have no experience with the Japanese meta, I do see the regional top decks, and they have about 4 decks that flood the top 2: Royals, Kagero, OTT, and Gold Paladin. Then we look at most of the decks that topped here and it's Gold Paladin, Gold Paladin, Gold Paladin, and Narukami. I'm gonna go ahead and say we're in a much more mono environment than they are, since even if we do use three different vanguard lineups, it's still all Gold Paladin winning in the end.
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Pcyborg

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-24, 01:32

smellmybox wrote:


I know it's not fair, but since Alice brought them up, I wanted to as well. 8 months just feels like a ridiculous amount of time even if we exclude the fact it's 4x as long as Yu Gi Oh's wait time.

And while I have no experience with the Japanese meta, I do see the regional top decks, and they have about 4 decks that flood the top 2: Royals, Kagero, OTT, and Gold Paladin. Then we look at most of the decks that topped here and it's Gold Paladin, Gold Paladin, Gold Paladin, and Narukami. I'm gonna go ahead and say we're in a much more mono environment than they are, since even if we do use three different vanguard lineups, it's still all Gold Paladin winning in the end.
When the decks were geared towards taking down DOTE and X ride in general, its pretty much a mono environment since the respective niches of the decks/clans are reduced significantly. Players were more inclined to making 18K row columns. Example was the Royal Paladin Alfred Deck which was mainly geared towards making 18K columns and lots of crits... It was pretty much on auto pilot as it gets but to actually resort to this sort of vanilla deck removes the essence of VG. Full Moon + Cresent Moon = 18K column as well. Its no coincidence.

I would definitely quit VG if I have to keep resorting to focus on vanilla builds... At least the English meta still have variety. GP is indeed dominating but its not just one particular build only. Its a variety of builds. Almost all of them are at 10K with exception to spectral duke in which, if you miss the chain ride, the penalty is hefty and its again back to 10K meta.

But for the rushed EN release, this is besides the point. We may not even see the X ride dominance due to the overwhelming presence of GP. The whole point is just the well being of the player and the secondary/player market will definitely be affected. An Ezel deck is pretty much as Vanilla as one can get...
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-24, 11:50

ScarletWeather wrote:
Given how English release schedule is paced, it does seem like Bushiroad wants to eventually get us in pace with the Japanese format
What makes you think this? I see no evidence of that. We're still around 6 months behind on every set. Some were a year behind due to the swap in May.
ScarletWeather wrote:
I'm not really sure how that would not be feasible, even given what you've already put out here. After all, Bushiroad hardly releases a set the moment they actually finish the set- I imagine they're working at least a few months ahead.
If you're insinuating Bushiroad could delay original releases just to get in synch, then A.) No they can't, that's going to lose them money and B.) what do Bushiroad get out of synching them?
Pcyborg wrote:
Pushing for a monthly release will just make players go on a selective purchase.
Your other points, I'm not so sure, but this? Yes. This is the effect of Buying Power. Players simply do not have the buying power to keep up with an accelerated release even if Bushiroad wanted to synch them, which as I've said: there's no indication they do and what would they get out of it? And if they release slowly, players will actually try out clans they had no previous interest in like how people tried DI, PM, AF and GN in Set 7.
smellmybox wrote:
Is it wrong to want more cards? We're currently going to end up being 7 months behind Japan as far as releases go.
Yes, it is. We have 6 Trial Decks, 7 Booster Sets, and 2 Extra Booster sets. In the first year of a card game. I believe that's not only a world record for translation speed, but it's way the hell more than players can even keep up with. And you say we'll be 7 months behind Japan as if that's somehow inherently bad. I don't see the problem. You play English which is not the language this game is natively released in. They play Japanese, which is. It's natural that we have to wait longer for things to come to us. Anime is like this. No one complains. That's how everything is. Seriously, everyone saying they need to synch acts like they've never had to wait on a release cycle before. And even if we did have Japan's card pool, we'd instantly get cut down from 20-30 viable decks to 8 Semi-viable decks and 1 truly viable deck.

It may be 4x as long as Yugioh, but Vanguard has 4x as much out in one year as Yugioh too. We got SEVEN sets SIX starters and TWO extra sets in the first year run of Vanguard. No other card game to date has done this. And what does it matter if we're 6 months behind when we're still getting stuff? I could understand this line of reasoning if we had months with holes in them.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-24, 12:17

Also close to 100 Promos.
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Klaus

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-24, 14:22

I think they're handling it fine. Whether it comes out tomorrow or next summer doesn't make me want it any less.

Also, as Alice points out, we have a pretty big card pool as is with lots of viable options. Might as well enjoy it.
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TehNACHO

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-24, 18:01

BUT I DON"T HAVE MY DOTE DECK YET KLAUS!

Seriously though, spoiled brats everywhere~
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smellmybox

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-25, 02:06

Sorry I'm such a spoiled brat. I'll remember to keep my opinions to myself from now on.
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-25, 02:08

Hmm?

I was mostly referring to the people from most other Vanguard hotspots on the internet raving about not being synched yet, unlike you who are at least trying to explain yourself. But you know, if you think you're a spoiled brat I guess I can't disagree ( o 3 o)
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-25, 02:51

Because I know SOMEONE is going to erroneously link me to this somehow: I did not call smellmybox a brat or spoiled. I didn't even say those things. So fuck you, nameless lurker who was just thinking that.

(Oh yes, I am in your mind)
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TehNACHO

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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-25, 02:55

I wonder if all my misfires get linked to you...
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-25, 03:08

TehNACHO wrote:
I wonder if all my misfires get linked to you...
All of them. And when you agree with me or back me up, people conveniently misplace their eyes for a few posts.
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-26, 00:20

Since from what I can tell I'm the only one who has posted about wanting them to speed up on THIS forum (at least, I haven't noticed anyone else), and certain things are being said about it on THIS forum, I have to assume I am at least one of the targets for anything said here. Seems logical.

Also how would anyone link that to Alice? TehNacho said it. I assume you two are different people unless you got some kind of Sakubo thing going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-26, 00:26

smellmybox wrote:
Since from what I can tell I'm the only one who has posted about wanting them to speed up on THIS forum (at least, I haven't noticed anyone else), and certain things are being said about it on THIS forum, I have to assume I am at least one of the targets for anything said here. Seems logical.

Also how would anyone link that to Alice? TehNacho said it. I assume you two are different people unless you got some kind of Sakubo thing going on.
Pojo automatically ascribes any rude or contrary remarks that Nacho makes to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Format synch   2012-12-26, 00:53

*shrugs*
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