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 Over-confident/arrogant players

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Another Leather Lung

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PostSubject: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-08, 07:52

I'm not sure if there's already a thread like this, or even if this goes here, but oh well.

If there's one thing that turns me off more than anything to playing against another Cardfighter, it's arrogance. We all know those people, whether they be friend or acquaintance, that really just wreak with cardgame ego, whether it be for good reason (I can't think of any), or people who are not very understanding of what it means to be competent in the game, but are in denial and believe they are the best (we all know them). Not to mention, through my experience, cardgamers (certainly not all) can be some of the most pompous, egotistical, and just downright rude human beings you will ever have the displeasure of meeting in life, usually with those with the more cardgame accomplishments under their belt being more so. The best of them or "pros" are treated like celebrities by the not so fortunate players (I see this too often, and it makes me sad), and often time act accordingly.

Thoughts or experiences?
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Another Leather Lung

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-08, 08:39

It wouldn't let me put any more in the first post. :<

But, imo opinion, if someone has the ability to do things like go to school and do complex, advanced math (a bad example), they more than have the capability of being the world champion of Vanguard. What it all boils down to, in essence, is who is willing to put the most time, effort, energy, mind, thought, money, luck, and passion into being competent and figuring out wgat it takes to win in the game. Those aren't things one ought to be cocky about, and those are the things which lead to one being "good".


Last edited by Another Leather Lung on 2013-05-08, 08:44; edited 1 time in total
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-08, 08:40

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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-08, 09:59

I have one.

Basically the reason I cannot be arsed to go pro with Vanguard.
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Hawky

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-08, 21:50

Yeah I also don't like it when they look down at you and don't even play seriously with you, they just muck around and don't even play to win.
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ResourcefulGeneral

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-08, 22:25

Another Leather Lung wrote:
What it all boils down to, in essence, is who is willing to put the most time, effort, energy, mind, thought, money, luck, and passion into being competent and figuring out wgat it takes to win in the game. Those aren't things one ought to be cocky about, and those are the things which lead to one being "good".


With the exception of money, these are things that it's reasonable to be cocky about. You win because you have a better understanding of the math behind the game. It's not an excuse to be an ass, obviously, but a tiny bit of arrogance is okay if you've earned it, I figure.

And I really can't see why you wouldn't play to win. There's really not much of a point otherwise.
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The Pirate Guy

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-08, 23:48

Oh boy. Story time.

I was playing in one of the Stand-Up Challenges in my area awhile back, and had the worst opponent in this game I have ever played, to this very day.

Firstly, and I shit you not, the guy looked like an even more obese brandon smith. Like add another 100-150 to Smith, and that's this guy. Well, as I'm coming up to the table to have a seat, he scoffs at my appearance (I have very long hair that I wear with a bandana, as well as facial hair and piercings). He looks over to a buddy of his sitting across the isle, and chuckles "Oh, man. What is this guy, a biker? I think I'm actually a little scared to play him." I just shot him a polite little grin, and quietly took my seat.

So the game starts up. He sees me flip over a Guiding Zombie, and once again scoffs at me. "Granblue, huh? Really? You must have some balls." I just grin once again, and nod, and say nothing.

I'm playing my usual Basskirk build, he's running PBO. We trade typical blows and guards back and forth for several turns. Only, once he's cross-ridden into PBO, he starts to get this even bigger aura of smug-fuck around him. He realizes that my Basskirk column hits 20K with Romario, and he's sitting at his comfortable 13K. He begins to scoff almost every time he guards an attack.

All the while, he keeps getting into the game. He's becoming very dramatic, and eccentric. He starts announcing his attacks, and spewing off shtity quotes from the show, in an attempt to either osund cool, funny, or intimidating- I'm not sure which one. Now, I'm all for fun and games during the match, especially if both players are playing with an unspoken rule of sillyness or jackassery. Sometimes its fun to start yelling out attacks like the dipwads in the show do, or to act surprised when someone hits a trigger, or is able to guard an easy block. But this guy... This was different. He was clearly being a jackass, trying to be intimidating or condescending, or some mixture thereof.

He began saying, every turn, during his twin drive- "They tell me... that the REAPER is coming!" referring to his clan's crit trigger, Grim Reaper. He missed it nearly every time, but was pretty ecstatic the one turn it did show up. Even still, He continued to say it for every twin drive for the remainder fo the game.

This continues on for many turns, and I am able to stave off his attacks well. Finally, one turn, he feels like he must have the game, and dramatically declares PBO's Effect, and pays the cost. He loudly announces the number of his Vanguard's attack, with critical. I silently play down my perfect guard and discard a card, and the motherfucker gives me the most disgusted look, as if I've cheated him. He checks no triggers, and the look of disgust on his face intensifies. He finishes out his turn, and I guard accordingly.

At this point, he is at 3 damage, and I am at 5. My hand is low, as is my soul, so I'm not megablasting with Basskirk. I set up my field with the remaining cards from my hand, and begin using Granblue resurrection effects to set up the best numbers I can. My hand is now empty, his hand is 5 or 6 cards.

I swing with Basskirk first, for 20K. He drops a 10K and a 5K shield, and smugly declares "Two to pass, son."

First check- -Ghoul Cannonball. I look up at his fat face, and declare "all effects to vanguard."
Second check- -Rough Seas Banshee. "All effects to vanguard."

As he checks his third and final (sixth) damage, I smile at him, and in the shit-eating-est manner possible, and with the most seriousness I could muster, I say to him "There are far worse things than death. What makes you think a Granblue player, of all people, would fear the reaper?" I sign my win, scoop my cards, and calmly walk off. He said nothing to me, and was significantly quieter in the rest of his matches for the remainder of the event.

TL;DR- If you scoff at my deck, it will double-crit the fuck out of you.
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Omnigeek

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-09, 00:22

OK, first off - nice response to him. Honestly, "What made you think a Granblue player...would fear the Reaper" is absolutely the GREATEST thing you could have said in that moment. However, I would like to know why you decided to put the effects of the first trigger on the Vanguard.
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The Pirate Guy

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-09, 00:39

Thank ya kindly.

I had been keeping an eye on my trigger count, and had only seen like 3 or 4 of the 12 crits in my deck. There were 8-9 left in deck, and I wasn't surviving the next turn, and he still had like 4 cards left after guarding that. He had 1 G2 interceptor as well, and I knew he had 2 more 10K shields in his hand.

Even if I would've put those triggers elsewhere, he could've guarded me out, and then ended me the next turn. My other columns weren't impressive, and were hitting for 16K and 20K respectively, to his 13K PBO.

So fuck it. No guts, no glory. All or nothing. All that jazz.
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Chestnut_Rice

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-09, 01:40

>people who think they're good because they use Hamburger-Time



Alle mein hass.
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Vulcanpeace

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-09, 03:33

It's alright for me if I fight cocky player so long as they have the strength to match
ARROGANCE SHOULD BE EARNED
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Scruffy420

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-09, 21:40

Even arrogance that's earned doesn't give people the right to look down on anyone. No one person is better than another.

Pirate, you handled that situation with class, and your response to the guy made me chuckle.
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AegisCrow

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-09, 23:42

there needs to be some sort of bushido-cardfighting code of honor. Just take the bullet-points version of bushido and tack hygiene onto the end of it--nerds can get stinky, yo.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 08:08

ThePirateGuy wins Vanguard. Bushiroad can go home.
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LightLightning

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 10:34

I KNOW I will be flamed for this post, but I really think someone should say this, and I'm guessing no one else will.
First of all, I am definitely considered one of those over-confident / arrogant players, although I try my best to not be an ass. To be condescendant though, I think it is fine.

I've been playing TCGs for like 14 years, and there aren't any big CFV tournaments here yet, but I've won several major tournaments in other card games, and let me tell you that it's very hard for someone experienced in high-level play to face an "average" guy and keep a decent attitude.
There are some tournaments where I know I haven't done my homework and prepared that well, and I might lose, badly even. But when I have actually prepared, and sit across an "average" player, especially if they are playing a deck worse (even if just slightly) than mine, I immediately know that, if I play seriously, the only way I'm possibly getting beat is if the odds go very much against me (specifically in CFV that would require a double-trigger check on a specific point, checking like 3-5 more triggers than me during the game, or me being grade-stuck).
That's not really being cocky, that's being realistic. It would take a top-player to outplay someone who hardly ever makes a mistake, to the point where the first player can overcome the natural disadvantage of playing an inferior deck. And if that guy sitting across from me happened to be a top-player, I would have heard about it.

So when facing a new player, or someone I know to be simply "average", and with a worse deck, I will be condescendant and I will not play seriously. But that is only because I know if I play seriously I will win by a landslide, and I fear that will discourage my opponent and maybe even make him quit the game. Can that come back and haunt me? Yes, it can. In some of the games where I lost by double-crit or similar stuff, I know that if I had played perfectly up to that point I would still win. Even worse, I know I ended up encouraging bad-plays when I guarded for 2-to-pass and my opponent chose to bet on double-trigger and it won him the game, and I really hate to encourage bad plays.
Another disadvantage is that the opponent won't learn as much if I'm playing sloppy as if I was playing seriously. But it really is hard to strike a balance there.

I've recently bought a Dragonic Overlord, The End deck, and I have been in a dilemma to play it or not in my local tournaments. There are 1-2 more Dragonic Overlord, The End decks and a MLB deck, and I know none of my other decks (Neo Nectar Trailing/Laurel and OTT CEO/Apollon) has a chance versus those, but I also don't really want to play with Dragonic Overlord, The End against everyone else with "regular" decks. So I've decided that when I play against any other deck I will never Hamburger-Time, and I will let my opponents know that when the game starts, so they don't have to play for 18k columns.

Tl;dr Being an ass is bad, but being condescendant is not always bad.
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VesperGhoul

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 16:12

LightLightning wrote:
Even worse, I know I ended up encouraging bad-plays when I guarded for 2-to-pass and my opponent chose to bet on double-trigger and it won him the game, and I really hate to encourage bad plays.

If your opponent wants to bank on the ~11% chance that a dbl trigger will happen then they deserve to win if they get it. They have an 89% of failure on this exercise, when they could have a guaranteed chance to power up a rg instead. They will learn off of losing enough times by putting first triggers on their vanguard instead of adding to pressure, and will either hopefully learn to change, or get used to losing.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 16:46

VesperGhoul wrote:
LightLightning wrote:
Even worse, I know I ended up encouraging bad-plays when I guarded for 2-to-pass and my opponent chose to bet on double-trigger and it won him the game, and I really hate to encourage bad plays.

If your opponent wants to bank on the ~11% chance that a dbl trigger will happen then they deserve to win if they get it.

No they don't.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 18:49

@PirateGuy, just so you know, that quote made it into the IRC's welcome marquee while I was away apparently.

Also, I think there are a lot of people in this thread who have no idea what arrogant actually means. It doesn't mean someone with a lot of confidence. It means someone with an exaggerated sense of of importance and ability. In other words, arrogance does NOT apply to people who act in accordance with their own ability. Someone who studied the math under the hood of this game and then goes on to talk about it fairly often and gets frustrated with laymen and idiots is not arrogant--that's called pride and frustration. Arrogance would be someone like Brandon Smith using his brief spat as Champion to over-aggrandize himself (which he did). Condescending is acting in a way that patronizes someone else with superiority. Which is never okay and is always wrong. Even against the dumbest and worst opponents, I keep my demeanor respectful. It's called being a good sport, faggot.
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ResourcefulGeneral

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 19:18

3XXXDDD wrote:
VesperGhoul wrote:
LightLightning wrote:
Even worse, I know I ended up encouraging bad-plays when I guarded for 2-to-pass and my opponent chose to bet on double-trigger and it won him the game, and I really hate to encourage bad plays.

If your opponent wants to bank on the ~11% chance that a dbl trigger will happen then they deserve to win if they get it.

No they don't.

You're using the wrong math here anyway.

We know that the first card is a trigger before it is assigned. This means that there's a ~33% chance that the next card will be a trigger, obviously adjusted by the remaining deck size and trigger quantity.

Then you need to evaluate the potential outcomes. If you know that a second attack, trigger or no, could be guarded, and that you don't have enough to guard through the next turn (or won't be able to guard through the next turn unless you get a trigger)

TRIGGER TO VANGUARD: ~33% victory, ~66% defeat
TRIGGER TO REARGUARD: ~0% victory, ~100% defeat

The numbers aren't quite perfect because of heal triggers, but there are niche situations where trying for the second trigger is the optimal move. This may well have been one of them.

The numbers get a lot fuzzier if you won't be able to guard through the next turn if he gets a trigger, unless you draw a trigger, in which case... Drive checking into G3s would also play a role. Shit. More complicated than I expected, although I believe the simplified version still illustrates the point.

Has anyone actually run the numbers on this?

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WingZero

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 20:45

...where did you get those numbers from...
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Epideme

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-10, 21:07

ResourcefulGeneral wrote:
The numbers aren't quite perfect because of heal triggers, but there are niche situations where trying for the second trigger is the optimal move.

Are you Misaki?
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The Pirate Guy

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-11, 00:27

Alice wrote:
@PirateGuy, just so you know, that quote made it into the IRC's welcome marquee while I was away apparently.

Lol wut? The not-fearing-the-reaper remark? I thought it was a pretty faggoty remark, myself. It was just the first thing that popped into my head that would parallel that motherfucker's smugness. How/why did it end up in the IRC?
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ResourcefulGeneral

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-11, 01:05

The short version is that he made the proper play under the circumstances, because anything else would have almost certainly lost him the game, while gambling on the vanguard allowed for a potential victory (not quite the full 33% in this case, because the scenario required double crit rather than double trigger, so my earlier numbers are a bit off).

Developing a rule of thumb for this is going to be significantly more complicated, because it would be necessary to consider whether you'd be able to guard the opponent's next turn based on the available shield, and how this would change based on what the second card was. You'd need to weigh these numbers somehow by the chance that your opponent pulls a trigger, which will generally mandate another 5k guard, sometimes 10k. Furthermore, you'd need to account for the number of cards in the opponent's hand, and whether they'd be able to guard your rearguard attack in the event of multiple triggers- an issue for which you'd have imperfect information. I do believe that betting on the vanguard is the optimal strategy in more cases than is commonly thought.


I believe this is a bit of an excessive digression from the original topic.

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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-11, 04:09

Why are you faggots STILL discussing this stupid bullshit detail? He was right to do it. Even if he was wrong, holy fuck that is not what the thread is about; go make a debate thread elsewhere.
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bradon

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PostSubject: Re: Over-confident/arrogant players   2013-05-11, 23:52

LightLightning wrote:


So when facing a new player, or someone I know to be simply "average", and with a worse deck, I will be condescendant and I will not play seriously.

I don't know how you can not play vanguard 'seriously'. Other tcgs I can see (I take it easy on my girlfriend when we play magic) but I don't see how there is any room to take it easy in vanguard. Their deck may be inferior, but they still have triggers which gives them the same edge you have (unless they are running like 12 draws, then I dunno what to say about that).
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