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 How do damage swap skills resolve?

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Scruffy420

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PostSubject: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-10, 20:58

So my buddy and I were playin and we came to a point where we had differing opinions on how damage swap skills work. I had 5 damage and used a swap that obviously put 6 damage in there. Now, my buddy thinks that 6 damage in the damage zone is the same concept as decking out, as soon as it happens you lose. I think that since the skill hasn't resolved until I take a damage out I don't lose. So who's right? I can't seem to find it in the rulebook anymore :/

If I'm right, does that same concept apply to the "damage exploders" that came out in BT08? Or is it different because they say to take a card out during your end phase?
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Klaus

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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-10, 21:41

Bushi long since confirmed doing a Nociel/Shamshiel/non-self damager skill won't kill you.

Also in the rules I remember it saying it doesn't check for a loss until all abilities resolve.
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Scruffy420

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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-10, 21:53

That's what I thought thank you.

So if I use one of those damage exploders the skill won't technically resolve until my end turn like the skill says? So I could have 6 damage through my main and battle phases?
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Klaus

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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-10, 22:02

That's a self-damager, so you'll lose.
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Scruffy420

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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-10, 22:09

Oh haha alright. You had me excited for a second. Your help is appreciated.
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AegisCrow

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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-11, 02:06

you should give the comprehensive rules a go-over, they explain things quite nicely when you get used to them.

very roughly, you only lose the game during a 'check timing', which is basically an extremely short pause of gameplay where both players check the state of the game for loss conditions and to see which skills can be activated. it's something you do and don't even realize it, except in the cases where you forget to activate something at the appropriate time. Incorporating 'check timing's into your understanding of the game will give you a finer-detail view of how rules can interact.
check timings occur before and after every phase and every use of any action, if I recall properly (I'll admit I don't have the comprehensive rules right in front of me and I'm typing this at 2AM local time,) and it's for that reason that 'damage swap' skills, as you call them, don't cause you to lose the game if you use them while at five damage.

you have five damage before the skill resolves (check timing)
you have five damage after the skill resolves (check timing)

with 'damage exploders', you'd be at six damage during the check timing immediately following the activation of the first portion of its skill, so you'd almost instantly lose.

I would very highly suggest you read and reread the comprehensive rules until you understand them, because they'll also help you understand how the structure of the game affects any other wacky situations you might run into. Plus, it never hurts to be the rules-person at your local meta.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-11, 04:07

Your buddy is wrong about both. No game win is "instantaneous". The conditions are met and then the game win is checked at the next main program flow of the rules. Branches like activating/resolving an effect are NOT part of the games internal timer so swapping damage and decking out do not cause you to lose unless the condition continues to be met once all effects are resolved. Check the comp rules

Also exploders resolve their first effect when it lands in the zone, so you do lose for that one.
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Scruffy420

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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-11, 06:08

Thanks for the in depth explanations. I knew I was right, I just couldn't find it in the rulebook in the time I had. Being at work was more important, so I posted when I got there. After reading Klaus's reply I looked up the cards again and re-read them and instantly understood why one would make you lose and the other wouldn't. I don't know why that didn't click the first time. But you're right, re-reading the rulebook wouldn't be such a bad thing.


Alice wrote:
Your buddy is wrong about both. No game win is "instantaneous". The conditions are met and then the game win is checked at the next main program flow of the rules. Branches like activating/resolving an effect are NOT part of the games internal timer so swapping damage and decking out do not cause you to lose unless the condition continues to be met once all effects are resolved. Check the comp rules

Also exploders resolve their first effect when it lands in the zone, so you do lose for that one.

I see what you're saying. For example, when I was at the pre-release for set 8 I was playin this guy and was delivering the final blow with my vanguard. I didn't need any triggers to win, but on the second drive check I used my last card and lost. So it might not be "instantaneous" but it sure feels like it because instead of my attack going though and him taking his damage, I lost because at the end of my drive check I had no cards in my deck.

It also doesn't help that in the Q&A section of the rulebook theres a question that asks what happens when you run out of cards, and the answer is "You lose the fight at that moment". Poor word choice if you ask me.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-11, 13:21

That is poor word choice. They also tell you to shoot for 15k columns in the rulebook and make some of the things pretty confusing.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: How do damage swap skills resolve?   2013-05-11, 14:36

Re: Twin Driving/Decking Out

Play Timing, as far as I understand it, only refers to the activation and resolution of a card mechanic. Drive Checking is a game mechanic and therefore occurs during check timing. It is a stupid nuance.
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