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 New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.

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Zoologist A

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PostSubject: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-20, 18:15

(Reposting this here as I just gained access to the proper deck discussion forums and this obviously is a deck discussion and so belongs here.)



Okay, I will first openly say that this is exactly Alice's Rain Dance deck copied right from the Deep Clan because it was an easy layout to get quickly. The changes I have made to the deck are based purely on my first impressions from the new Dimension Police cards in BT08 and how they might alter the way that this deck is built enhance the way it plays. I do not own this deck and I have not made proxies for it as yet (though I think I will) so it is entirely untested.

I know that Burden of Proof lies with me and thus I should be the one stating figures and evidence for why this list works, but let me really hammer home that proving anything is not the goal of this thread. The goal is to get the ball rolling on discussing this out of date build since it now has many more options available to it that no one (I believe) has formally addressed up to this point.

In short this is only an IDEA, not even a theory, but since I hadn't seen anyone else attempt to update the decklist I decided I would try myself and see if any of you people who are more able to play regularly (I only get to play one, maybe two days in the week and against a limited pool of opponents). This is why I put the list forward and encourage other people to test it and make changes and updates based on their experiences, math and data.

I am in no way claiming that this is the "New and improved" or "Current Best" build of the deck. I merely wanted to get the ball rolling on evolving this deck list since I saw a lot of potential in it, but feel it was hampered by the lack of a tailored SVG and subpar G1 and G2 options. With BT08 I believe it is possible to help this deck realise its full potential, even if I am not the one to make that happen, I will be the one who instigates the deeper investigation.





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Grade 0: 17(16)

1 Warrior of Destiny, Dai/Dimensional Robo, Daibattles. Hear me out here: Prior to BT08, Raindance was forced to run Enigman Flow which was a -1 anyway so using Daibattles is no different in that respect. The upshot is that using Daibattles takes off the pressure of using Ripple in the G1 line-up and Wave in the G2 line-up, freeing those spots for use with newer and more helpful cards. In addition, Daibattles can be removed from soul to make Rain go "Live" for no cost at all and even allows her to hit 20/21k during that turn depending on her booster. This means Grander's boost can go somewhere else or stack for a whole stage of power, and of course allows you to stand with Rain even without Grander present during the turn you remove Daibattles from soul. I can think of a lot of uses for this little crit trigger, sadly there is no way of readding it to the deck, so you are effectively only running 15 triggers in this build, 4 heal and 15 stand. I don't think that would make a massive difference to gameplay over the long haul however. The other option of using WoD, Dai as SVG allows the +1 from riding and his 4000 power actually works behind Rain since she will almost always be 12000 before boost anyway making a 16k column without further investment so he can warm Laurels spot behind the Vanguard if that is where you prefer to place him. The Grade 3 search is just gravy since the deck doesn't use Counterblast and if you use it and fail you are no worse off than if Enigman Flow got stuck in soul like the original version of the deck.

4 Justice Rose. Heal Trigger.
4 Guide Dolphin. Stand Trigger.
4 Cosmo Fang. Stand Trigger.
4(3) Noise Monster, Decibelon. Stand Trigger (If using Dimensional Robo, Daibattles as Starter Vanguard then remove 1 Stand.)

Grade 1: 15

4 Diamond Ace. Staple perfect guard.
4 Karenroid Daisy. Staple vanilla booster for use with Grander.
4 Speedster. I think this is the G1 that this deck has really needed. Allowing Rain to go live any time this card is played and synergising with Laurel since unlock Cosmo Roar or Grander, Speedster is still standing after the +2000 boost is given. Think it's pretty much a no brainer to run this card for rain nowadays. Also no less boost than Ripple was since she was just 6000 as well unlike the 7000 power grade 1s that many ride chains now possess.
3 Commander Laurel. Now that Speedster has arrived you will be able to use Laurel a bit more freely, as stated above, resting Cosmo Roar or attacking first with Grander is no longer always necessary to getting Rain's effect to activate and this fact allows you to have your cake and eat it too when it comes to standing Miracle Beauty and still getting an extra Twin Drive with Rain.

Grade 2: 10(11)

4 Twin Order. Staple vanilla interceptor. Can go well in front of Speedster, maybe even hitting Hamburger-time for 2 stages if you have nowhere better to grant the +2000. (unlikely)
4 Masked Police, Grander. Set up a Karenroid-Grander column to always have a live Enigman Rain.
2(3) Operator Girl, Mika/Super Dimensional Robo Dailady/Cosmic Rider. With the shackles to the Enigman Ride Chain shrugged off, this portion of the deck can now rightly go to your preferred tech choice. I think these are in order of the most preferred choice, but I am open to being proven wrong. My reasoning here is that Rain Dance never used Counterblast before now and having Mika there to provide pressure and possible advantage at minimal resource cost is nice and since Rain is on hit, your opponent is going to have a decision to make as to whether you get that stand effect or an extra card in hand. What'll really bake their noodle is that if they make the silly decision of guarding Mika over Rain, then when Rain hits you can stand Mika for a second bite at the apple anyway, this is made even more viable even against 10k and 11k vanguards since Speedster allows Grander to pass his power bonus to Mika instead of Rain if you so desire. The priniple is having these options available to you, even if you rarely use them. Of course if you have Miracle Beauty down then you would stand her instead of Mika, but since you still mostly want Grander out, you'd be putting Beauty in Mika's slot anyway. Running Dailady here is interesting becuase the on hit again forces a decision with Rain's effect whereby if call Speedster and give +2000 to Rain and then attack with Dailady and hit (because your opponent is saving guard for Rain) then you can give the further +3000 to Rain which is exactly one extra stage, possibly negating the extra guard your opponent was trying to save anyway. Triggers only compound this. Finally, Cosmic Rider just gives more ways to activate Rain without having to rest anything so Laurel can go off.

Grade 3: 8

4 Enigman Rain. Ride ASAP. Rain doesn't function any differently now than she ever did, she's just even easier to set up now and has more decent targets in Dailady/Mika if you haven't called Beauty yet. Plus the new freedom to both attack first with Miracle Beauty and use Laurel's effect thanks to Speedster is a nice option.
4 Miracle Beauty. She is still as good as she always was, I don't think BT08 makes Miracle Beauty any better than she was, but she certainly isn't worse. Speedster can go behind her for 16k while giving +2000 to Rain for the perfect set up.



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For Grade Ratio, obviously if you decide to use Daibattles as the SVG (which I oddly believe to be the optimum choice for options and consistency come mid/late game) then you can run 3 copies of your G2 tech choice or alter the ratios in any other appropriate way that you think would be most beneficial.

I think Speedster is a huge boon to the deck and think the saving grace is not being chained to Flow->Ripple->Wave anymore, allowing the greater variety and actual usage of counterblast if running Mika means that resources are not being wasted.

I also think that Land Battle Support Type, Enigship may deserve an honorable mention of being a possible G1 choice if you decide not to run Speedster at the maximum number of copies and/or drop one Laurel. The reason being that once again Counterblast is a readily available and little utilised resource in the deck and the 7000 power makes proper columns with Mika/Dailady and can even make good columns with Grander/Daisy or hit 18k with Twin Order. It's there anyway as another option which I thought was good to mention, even if it didn't make it onto the decklist even as a tech.

Hopefully I have been thorough enough, considering all of the viable new options this decklist has open to it with the new cards released while I have already ceded that no hard math or testing has gone into compiling this list, I believe many of the choices were already accepted even before their release (Like Speedster being good for this deck). Again my aim here was simply to spark discussion and get the ball rolling for the really smart people here to compile their own list which may or may not reflect this one. I really do hope that this starts something (preferably not a flame war though :P) and we can brainstorm Rain to even greater glory! (pun mildly intended... meh)
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Epideme

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PostSubject: Re: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-20, 18:24

"I don't just want to minus myself for my first vanguard, I want to take a critical out of my deck too."

This is you.

Use Dai.
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Dakota

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PostSubject: Re: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-21, 07:20

It makes me sad on a personal level that this decklist doesn't include Glory Maker. I'm rather a fan of vanguard boosters being at 2 in most decks, and Glory Maker is one of the better ones at that. I realize it's a late-game booster, but that's where it counts. T'were it me, I would drop a Speedster and a Laurel for Glory Maker. But then, I've also got a slight bias against the cards that Speedster is a clone of, seeing as how they're not much good in other decks. I mean, I see exactly how useful Speedster is here, don't get me wrong. But a bias is a bias for a reason. And at least I'm admitting it.
Also, having Laurel at 3 had me confused for a moment, but after reading the original decklist, I saw where it's from. That said, while Laurel is certainly useful in the deck, its on-hit limitation is a bit unsettling for me to agree with running 3. A 4k booster for your 12k vanguard is fine and all, but would you rather have your vanguard attacking for 16 or 22? And as a rear-guard in the deck, Laurel is gravy, sure, especially if you can get 2 columns of Miracle Beauty and through sheer dumb luck, somehow into double stand after using it (stand both Miracle Beauties and thus their columns, then do it again), but at 3, it seems like he's asking you to drop him onto the guardian circle. Of course, that's an opinion, but it's open for discussion, right? Then again, Alice did extensive testing to come up with 3 Laurels, right? Maybe there's something about it I'm missing.
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Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

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PostSubject: Re: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-21, 08:17

It's got to be three. Any lower and you won't get him since no option to search him exists.
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Dakota

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PostSubject: Re: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-21, 09:50

I don't see how you "won't get him". However, I can understand that it may be less consistent. And that may or may not hurt the deck. But isn't that the point? To find out?
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Zoologist A

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PostSubject: Re: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-21, 16:23

I'm glad this started some discussion and I can definitely see your point with Daibattles as the vanguard. The point I was trying to make is that, the original version of the deck using Flow was a -1 on ride anyway (if you didn't get Ripple) so it is no different from before in that respect. However Daibattles +3000 during any main phase of the whole game is a great tool for using Rain or even just forcing another stage of guard from your opponent during a crucial turn of the game (assuming full stage of power because Grander/Speedster +2000 and Daibattles +3000 on same target) Obviously using Dai is good because of the Forerunner ability, but at 4000 power he is going to be replaced by Laurel at some point anyway and that is a -1. In total, using Daibattles for his ability is no worse in terms of advantage than minusing by calling over Dai which you will at some point anyway unless you don't mind not pressuring your opponent. Even using Dai's Grade 3 search is a -1, so the fact that he rides out really is pretty moot against Daibattles staying in soul since you are going to almost always minus on Dai during the game anyway. I'd just rather have the sneaky ability to use Rain or give a full stage when my opponent doesn't expect it because they sniped Grander and think they are safe for a turn.

Losing the critical from the trigger line-up means nothing as I was only running one critical anyway and if I ran Dai I would be using 12 stand, so there is no critical in the deck ever anyway. And I don't see how 11 stand is worse than 12 stand in a deck where standing is a mechanic I can get without triggers anyway.


Dakota's point about Laurel at 3 being too much for the deck and also at using Glory Maker may well be valid. I stated at the beginning that this decklist was not definitive and I was encouraging people to tweak and improve it. Glory Maker may well be an improvement in the deck and losing 1-2 Speedster for her is probably more than acceptable. I kept Laurel at 3 because as you yourself stated, Alice tested for 3 Laurel and found it best in the original and since this version of the deck aims to make Laurel a bit more usable (due to being able to give +2000 on call or with Daibattles instead of needing to rest Cosmo Roar or attack with Grander) I would doubt that decreasing Laurel when he was already best ran at 3 would be a good idea.


Going back to Glory Maker and also Dai vs Daibattles. If I were to run Glory Maker then Dai is definitely getting called over at some point in the game, so the -1 is almost guaranteed, making Daibattles no worse in this situation.



Please keep the discussion coming while we try and make the best of these cards!
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Dakota

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PostSubject: Re: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-21, 17:13

Sorry, but I have to agree in this case on Dai. Think of what you're losing by using Daibattles. Don't get me wrong, it was a great idea, bonus points for creative thinking, but you fail to see your full loss. It's not that it's throwing your number of *insert type here* triggers, but consider briefly that it is a 10k shield that would never get to your hand, period. While the same is true for Dai, consider also that by running Dai, you're still running 16 triggers, and thus have 1 extra 10k shield in the deck. This gives you an overall plus of 5k shield. Moreover, any trigger that isn't in your deck (or doesn't go back like Battle/Turboraizer, Lozenge/Sphere Magus, and Sunny Smile Angel) means 1 less +5k trigger effect for one of your units.
Also, consider this: In a deck of 43 cards (starting vanguard removed plus 6 cards in your hand, assuming no triggers in hand), with 16 triggers in the deck, you have a 37% chance of any given card being a trigger. With only 15, this lowers to 35%. This does not seem like a significant drop given just the numbers, but consider that this roughly 2-2.5% drop applies to every trigger you get into your opening hand, too. And with only 15 triggers in the deck, your chances of that are...
Population, 49... sample size 5... There's a 36% that any of those cards is a trigger and a whopping 85% that there is 1 or more triggers in your hand. Assuming a standard redraw of 3 cards... (saying we threw back the triggers), 46% chance that one is a trigger, and 70% chance that one or more are triggers. And for each of these triggers, a drop in your chances of trigger checking. By the time it gets to late game, that one extra trigger could make a world of difference.
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Zoologist A

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PostSubject: Re: New Rain Dance deck using BT08 cards.   2013-05-22, 13:09

Thank you, I'll take that compliment on creativity gladly.

Hmm, I did realise about the drop in shielding, although you are right that I forgot/didn't mention it in my writing before. The trigger percentages... all I can say is to play with them over the course of a while and see just how much of an impact that it does actually have. You very rarely go through your entire deck in a game anyway, so there will almost always be cards that never see play in a match. How often do you go through your entire trigger line-up in a game?

Someone else (after I reposted this in another forum) commented on how useful/not useful Speedster is and also questioned Laurel. I'm actually somewhat in agreement when thinking about Laurel now. In this new version of the deck, Laurel may not be necessary at all.

Consider the following changes to the list.

SVG
-1 Daibattles
+1 Dai

Triggers
12 stand
4 heal

G1
-3 Laurel
+2 Glory Maker

G2
+1 Mika (to make 3)

So the list now stands at.

1 Dai
12 stand
4 heal

4 Diamond Ace
4 Karenroid Daisy
4 Speedster
2 Glory Maker

4 Twin Order
4 Grander
3 Mika

4 Rain
4 Beauty

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The reason I say about scrapping Laurel entirely is because he is always a bad booster unless behind 12k Rain and we would much rather have 22k Rain with Glory Maker (as pointed out by Dakota) for an extra 2 stages to guard Rain's on hit every turn of late game. Since Laurel relies on the Vanguard hitting to function at its best and Rain is on hit, the pressure from the vanguard is redundant when we want to be pressuring from VG and RGs.

Also, Laurel best works with crits in the deck so you can restand VG with extra critical and maybe even check more critical for 2-3 damage off the second attack. That isn't possible in this deck since no crits exist, meaning at best Laurel is going to grant 1 extra damage instead of 2-3 as in an ideal use of Laurel. However, since the deck is running max stands, Miracle Beauty is stronger and the threat of 2 Beauty columns with Speedsters or Cosmo Roars behind them is much stronger.

These new cards make it easier for Rain to go live, and a 3rd set of Stands makes Beauty even better, so Laurel is almost a hindrance to this new play style that would rather hit harder with the vanguard and more often with Beauty, than the original list.

I've been reading more and thinking and it seems that Laurel best suits a Crit based deck, but this deck wants to utilising Standing as it's main mechanic, so perhaps giving into that instead of diluting the focus is the way to go?

I would also consider this as a possibility.

-1 Daibattles
-3 Laurel
-1 Speedster

+1 Dai
+2 Glory Maker
+2 Cosmo Roar

Allowing Cosmo Roar to sit behind Miracle Beauty so that we can have columns like Mika/Daisy, Rain/Glory, Miracle/Roar to give 2/3/2 with the pressure of drawing for advantage off one RG and the pressure of standing for another 2 stage attack with Beauty. As opposed to the old line-up of Grander/Daisy, Rain/Laurel, Miracle/Roar which only hit 2/2/2 and didn't have the pressure of Mika's on hit ability either.



Let's keep going, I think we're getting somewhere with this.
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