Trigger Line Up

Alright, so correct me if I'm wrong, but after reading through some of the articles on the blog, I deduce that you have roughly a 30% chance of hitting a trigger on a single drive check and when you receive damage. The chances of hitting a trigger when twin driving is increased by about 1.5 times of hitting a trigger when single drive checking. I am bringing this up to seek any advice/tips on my trigger line-up. I am currently running a OTT Tsukuyomi deck.

My beef with the 12 crit line up is that, aside from heal triggers, all the triggers hit during damage check doesn't generate any card advantage (aside from the power boost). So, I figure that if I run 4 draw triggers, then 8 out of the 16 triggers hit during the damage check will be of use, and as mentioned above, if I hit a trigger 30% of the time I take damage, that means half of that, or 15% of the time, I would hit either a draw or heal trigger. Whereas if I ran 12 crits, i would only hit a useful trigger during the damage step slightly less than 8% of the time. Now, I realize that hitting a crit trigger during damage check isn't completely useless, as it does give you a power boost.

I know I'm missing other pro's and cons here for crit vs draw triggers, such as total shield values. But what I want to know is, if my logic is correct, is running 4 draw triggers simply to hit one at damage check for the draw a good enough arguement to run it over a 12 critical line-up?



tldr?

Well, it's about whether or not you prefer the chance of activating a draw during damage check, or the proportionate change in chance that you can deal extra damage, or pressure, in a twin drive, which still bears higher chances of checking a trigger. Honestly, the biggest selling point for draws to me (OTT is my tournament deck as well) is simply to loop my deck faster. It's personal preference here if you neglect the stacking the deck does though, it's hard to loop when running. 12 crits

Draw triggers are a net loss of effects if activated during the drive check step.

Critical / Stand / Heal are good in Twin Drive step.

Draw / Heal are good in the damage check phase. Which is typically 1/3 of total trigger phases during a given turnset. Critical, Stand are not.

Heal are good in all phases.

This kinda ranks the triggers just according to when you can use them:
Heal > Critical > Stand > Draw

That isn't to say each trigger doesn't have its own uses, but running more than 4 Draws for anything other than a specific purpose (deck looping etc) puts you at a net disadvantage. It's very hard to loop with less than 6 draws, however:

CEO exists. And this means non-Tsukuyomi decks don't need draw triggers. Her skill increases the chance that you drive check a trigger which means if a draw appears, you've practically wasted your extra trigger chances. Why? Because getting a draw is 5k shield and on average, 5.8k shield for most decks. A total that resembles a normal 10k you get from a Crit/Stand. The 0.8 only rolls over in a very long length of turns. Usually more turns than you have draw triggers available, and the more draws you add in the lower that shield number goes. So safe bet is a draw is just Power and 10k. Crits/Stands are Power, 10k, and an additional offensive effect. For CEO and non-specialized decks, there is no contest there.

Thanks for the responses.

Just one more question for Alice:

Why atleast 6 draws to help with looping? I'm guessing it has something to do with the chances of hitting those draws consistently, but I want to make sure.

Also, if draw triggers are indeed far inferior to crits, in terms of shielding and offensive ability, and if I'm running draw triggers solely for the deck thinning, would it justify running sub-par deck thinning cards, like blue eye/petal fairy and just have a 12 crit trigger line-up?

I've been testing and tweaking as much as I can, but I only get to play about twice a week, and I've only played about a month, and the regional is right around the corner.

If there are any other veteran OTT Tsukuyomi players out there, any advice would be appreciated :)

I believe the 6 Draws are necessary to add the momentum to the deck necessary so that the loop will be successful. I've never played any loop decks so I apologize if I'm wrong, but in my opinion, I think the 6 draws are there so that it will be much easier to draw through your deck (so you can get access to the deck parts that you've stacked).

Keep in mind that with only Crits/Heals/Stands in the deck it you will most likely have only 10k shields to guard with for triggers, so it may come up that you will need to pitch a 10k shield to cover for a minor attack that could be blocked for only 5k due to the presence of so many 10k shields.

Yeah, the intent is so that you can draw through a little faster to the stack and get closer to finishing with a double trigger (preferably both criticals). Also, Blue-Eye may seem like a sub-par unit, but if you put it behind the vanguard, it means you're waving through an additional card every time you boost the vanguard (which should be any time you're 1/4/8(?) or so away from the stack) and still hitting just about that 10k guarding threshold.

root-3 wrote:

Thanks for the responses.

Just one more question for Alice:

Why atleast 6 draws to help with looping? I'm guessing it has something to do with the chances of hitting those draws consistently, but I want to make sure.

Also, if draw triggers are indeed far inferior to crits, in terms of shielding and offensive ability, and if I'm running draw triggers solely for the deck thinning, would it justify running sub-par deck thinning cards, like blue eye/petal fairy and just have a 12 crit trigger line-up?

I've been testing and tweaking as much as I can, but I only get to play about twice a week, and I've only played about a month, and the regional is right around the corner.

If there are any other veteran OTT Tsukuyomi players out there, any advice would be appreciated :)

Yes, it has to do with chance and speed. If you calculate Tsukuyomi's total looping without purposefully miss-riding CEO, then you come up about 2-3 cards short.

Draw triggers are only inferior after your field is full. There are two types of advantage in Vanguard: offense advantage is 5k or less shielding that you can call to attack or boost. This generally gives you a stage per card lost in terms of pressure, which results in a direct loss of shielding for the opponent on a 1:1 ratio every turn. The other type of advantage is Defensive advantage. This is a bit nebulous because it includes preventing your opponent from attacking, retiring them, yadda yadda, but also including drawing cards after your field is full. Each card drawn is 5800 avg shield (round down to 5000 since it rarely pays off) and Draw triggers help there equally as well as criticals or stands. Since a stand essentially creates 5k shield in negative, and a draw at that time creates 5k shield as well. Criticals typically create either another 5k of shielding (stop 21k+ rearguard) or give another damage, which is worth 1.5 card or 3 stages of shielding total. But crits can do this at any time, stands can fizzle early game, and draws giving defensive advantage are usually inferior to crits and stands because while it's true they all three typically generate another 5k in some way, draws fail to conserve the 10k that comes on the other two. So you take a net loss of 5k shield each time a draw activates after your field is full.

Draws are better earlier in the game.

VesperGhoul wrote:

Keep in mind that with only Crits/Heals/Stands in the deck it you will most likely have only 10k shields to guard with for triggers, so it may come up that you will need to pitch a 10k shield to cover for a minor attack that could be blocked for only 5k due to the presence of so many 10k shields.

No, wrong. A draw would've had the same impact as guarding with your crit and the extra draw of 5k then has the same impact as the critical (actually less but my point is the comparison) added to a unit. That's assuming you compare both triggers after having been checked. If you drew both triggers then it's an identical play. The only time you should worry about guarding 5k with triggers is if you run draws in the first place since they leave you open to having less overall shielding when you straight draw them.

@Omni, Blue eye is also for going behind a Tsukuyomi rear if you got the chain.

For me, it seems kind of like a paradox running 6 draw triggers to get to the stack.

On one hand, yes, it does get you to the stack faster.

On the other hand, 6 draw triggers means less crit triggers.

And as mentioned before, if a trigger shows up 1 out of every 3 cards, the first stack of five cards would contain about 2 triggers. And the chances of those two triggers being both critical triggers are about 20%. Likewise the chances of both of them being draw triggers is also 20%, which, as mentioned by Alice, is pretty subpar late game.

Now, for me, the best part about getting to the stack is that I get to a double CRIT trigger, not just any double trigger. Sure, heal trigger would be good as well, but that requires for me to be the same as/behind in damage, and a Silent Tom Boosted with a crit is much scarier than just a boosted Tom.

Running 6 draws trigs would definitely get me to the stack faster, but I feel like nothing impressive would be waiting for me at that stack.

HOWEVER, if I don't run any draws, or not enough, it doesn't matter if I have all 12-15 crits at my stack, because I'd most likely lose before I even got there.

I've thought of running 6 draws and 2-3 blue eyes so if I did draw draw triggers I could put em back to the bottom of the deck, but realistically speaking, Tsukuyomi decks already suffer enough if they don't get that sixth soul (Tagitsuhime, Full moon being 9K, full moon not being able to use its skill); and by adding blue eyes it just hurts the deck consistency more.

What to do..

Quote :

On the other hand, 6 draw triggers means less crit triggers.

That's why I run 6 and not 8. I faced that same problem the first time I made Tsukuyomi.

Alice wrote:

No, wrong. A draw would've had the same impact as guarding with your crit and the extra draw of 5k then has the same impact as the critical (actually less but my point is the comparison) added to a unit. That's assuming you compare both triggers after having been checked. If you drew both triggers then it's an identical play. The only time you should worry about guarding 5k with triggers is if you run draws in the first place since they leave you open to having less overall shielding when you straight draw them.

This is true, however I meant that the draws helps to get replacements for lost RG's/Boosters in order to set up/maintain your pressure columns. In terms of pure guard, yes I absolutely agree that crit triggers > draws since a guaranteed 10k > a potential 10k. However many decks have no reusable way to generate more front row/boosters, things like Starcall and Macha types usually being 1 time deals.