To Kill a Crossride (some deck advice, if you don't mind)

I know that this community (for the most part,) would rather the crossrides just not exist altogether. I get that, and more or less agree, but there's still one problem for me: they still exist, and they haven't been restricted yet in the English format. Having won my FLGS's shop qualifier for the Stand-Up challenge cup, I dread the inevitable overflow of Dragonic Overlord, The End and MLB decks I'll have to face.

The thing is, I'm a relatively inexperienced player--I've only been playing since January or so, but since the game has clicked for me I've become the top dog at my store for the time being. Going to the regionals is about finding out if I'm a big fish, or if the pond is just small, and as such it's my goal to do as well as I possibly can.

That said, I'm a college student. I don't have the funds to throw down to join the cancer that kills the meta and buy crossrides for myself. I'd like your collective advice on the tweaks I'm throwing into my deck for the upcoming tournament, since I value the opinions of you guys very much.

tl;dr-how well will this pauper's deck/strategy work against crossrides?

here's the rough structure of what I'll be playing around with for the next month and testing against as many proxied crossride decks as possible.
grade 0: Fullbau, 8 crits, 4 draws, 4 heals
grade 1: 4 Blaster Javelin, 4 Darkside Pegasus, 4 Black sage Charon, 3 Mac Lir
grade 2: 4 Knight of Darkness Rugos, 3 knight of fighting spirit
Dordona, 1 Blaster Dark, 2 Skull Witch Nemain
grade 3: 4 Origin Mage Ildona, 2 Dark Metal Dragon, 2 Badhabh Caar


the rough plan is to try to hit the 18k sweetspot as much as possible with vanilla 10K's in front of Vanilla 8k's or Darkside Pegasi on the turn I can drop them. beyond that, the deck makes a good number of 16K columns, which will be good for anything but crossrides. Blaster Dark is splashed for his searchability, and riding him isn't essential to my strategy beyond an extra, guaranteed ride and a slightly thinner deck. Ildona does his limit break 16k-before-boost thing he does so well and tanks late game like a champ. if I have the opportunity to swing against an 11k vanguard with him, he can hit 26k if he counterblasts while in front of my 8K booster and I dropped a pegasus that turn for him, so he more or less can keep the pressure up like a champ against most foes. 2 nemains because I would like to and can afford to use one of them for their ability and I'm unlikely to draw more than one of them at that number.

I might play around with swapping the Badhabh Caars for Dark Dictators, but in the past I've not had luck with him. Although he'd be the only soulblasting unit in the deck, I tend to hesitate to play him until my front row is entirely full, which isn't guaranteed.

thoughts:

• being able to swing with 18k columns should put decent pressure on crossride decks.
  
• Ildona's counterblast should help me be able to keep my hand stocked and give me shielding options.
  

Concerns:

• with my deck being so stocked with vanillas, my strategy isn't all that flexible. my deck is a one-trick-pony of hitting one target number that I may or may not even have to hit, depending on what my opponent plays.
  
• would spamming 18k columns even put enough pressure on my opponent, assuming he's playing a crossride, for me to be able to pull the win?
  
• is focusing my deck around 18k columns so much even that great of an idea?
  

Additional Information:

• I cannot afford to purchase another Mac Lir, nor do I know of anyone I can borrow one from.
  
• My normal Shadow Paladin deck tries to focus more on low-grade rushdown, counterblast abuse, and high pressure attacks. I swapped out 4 Garurubaus for the Darkside pegasi, and one Witch of Nostrum and two Darkness Maiden Machas for the Knight of Fighting Spirit Dordona. the Rugos' used to be Cursed lancers.
  

Comments, criticisms, and eviscerations are all welcomed and asked for, ladies and gents. thanks for your time.

AegisCrow wrote:

Concerns:

• with my deck being so stocked with vanillas, my strategy isn't all that flexible. my deck is a one-trick-pony of hitting one target number that I may or may not even have to hit, depending on what my opponent plays.
  
• would spamming 18k columns even put enough pressure on my opponent, assuming he's playing a crossride, for me to be able to pull the win?
  
• is focusing my deck around 18k columns so much even that great of an idea?
  

Deviating from making 18k columns is significantly lowering your chances of winning against any crossride. Otherwise it only takes a 5k shield to guard which is practically effortless. If their deck is built well they are going to win a large majority of matches. The worse they built it, the higher your chances but not by much and that's not really a factor to bet on.

Quote :

Additional Information:

• I cannot afford to purchase another Mac Lir, nor do I know of anyone I can borrow one from.
  
• My normal Shadow Paladin deck tries to focus more on low-grade rushdown, counterblast abuse, and high pressure attacks. I swapped out 4 Garurubaus for the Darkside pegasi, and one Witch of Nostrum and two Darkness Maiden Machas for the Knight of Fighting Spirit Dordona. the Rugos' used to be Cursed lancers.
  

Comments, criticisms, and eviscerations are all welcomed and asked for, ladies and gents. thanks for your time.

-That's going to make things much harder on you and further reduce any possible consistency of winning. Make this a top priority to get your 4th Mac Lir when you can.
-May as well take out Pegasus and put Gururubau back in. 9k early game attacks is probably going to do more for you than 8k-for-a-turn-then-useless.

Badhabh Caar isn't going to do much of anything against 13k so you may as well use Dictator instead. Short of a complete overhaul (not likely with the available budget you're implying) there's not much else to be done.

Edalborez wrote:

Deviating from making 18k columns is significantly lowering your chances of winning against any crossride. Otherwise it only takes a 5k shield to guard which is practically effortless. If their deck is built well they are going to win a large majority of matches. The worse they built it, the higher your chances but not by much and that's not really a factor to bet on.

-That's going to make things much harder on you and further reduce any possible consistency of winning. Make this a top priority to get your 4th Mac Lir when you can.
-May as well take out Pegasus and put Gururubau back in. 9k early game attacks is probably going to do more for you than 8k-for-a-turn-then-useless.

Badhabh Caar isn't going to do much of anything against 13k so you may as well use Dictator instead. Short of a complete overhaul (not likely with the available budget you're implying) there's not much else to be done.

duly noted.
my initial approach is that a possibility of having a 9k attacker that becomes a useless booster once the crossride drops is not as reliable as a flexible booster that lets me hit 18k for at least one turn. Badhabh Caar fills up two rearguard circles that I can possibly use to swing at one of their rearguards before retiring them to use Ildona's counterblast while, in my past, Dark Dictator clogs up my hand waiting for me to have used Illdona to his fullest and/or have two rearguards in the front row. like I said, though, I'm going to be playing around with this for a bit, so I'll put in one and/or the other configurations you've suggested and see what works best for me.

that said, just for clarification's sake, are you suggesting that only crossrides reliably defeat crossrides? is that the sort of complete overhaul you're referring to?

I believe alice wrote a fairly lengthy piece on how cross rides can only really be killed by cross rides, and thus make the games unbalanced unless up against another 13k body. That being said, certain cross rides outstrip others. (Dragonic Overlord, The End vs...pretty much anything...)

The only other deck that can try and get a win Vs Cross-rides, is Stern blaukruger in Nova grapplers, but the deck is pretty much completely vanilla, and still suffers from not having a 13k body

yeah man, Cross-rides ARE a no-fun allowed bunch of shit, if you play much better than them you can still manage through a win with a bit of sack, but if they do their Derp herp, you will lose and there is not much you can do about it

That just seems like such a bleak outlook on it, though.

again, I'll say I'm inexperienced--I haven't yet had the reportedly hair-pulling experience of running against one of them, and so in my naive optimism I still feel as though they're a challenge that's not so entirely insurmountable.

a good number of things can go well or poorly for a crossride-playing opponent, that's for certain--but until they succesfully hit that crossride on turn four at the earliest (which would entail having/drawing another grade three that does nothing in regards to shielding, as they can't afford to ditch it with a perfect guard--and which is still a -1 when they ride it, albeit for that challenging 13k body we all hate) it's still like playing any other opponent for those first three turns.

wouldn't they then have the same level of weakness to early-game rushdown?
wouldn't crossing the 18k threshold against them early and often put huge pressure on their hands?

I'm certainly not saying "herp-derp, crossrides are easy, you guys are just being wussies!" I'm just saying that maybe we could try being a bit less dismissively doom-and-gloom about it and try to tailor an anti-crossride deck that doesn't have to resort to being crossride itself.

Like said, Early rushing in this game is GOD, but you cant guarantee you will always pull it off, since it largely depends on your starting hand. but yes the most you can do its try to rush them as much as possible.

and think like this, pushing 18k is the same as pushing 15-16k against normal decks.

firagadam wrote:

Like said, Early rushing in this game is GOD, but you cant guarantee you will always pull it off, since it largely depends on your starting hand. but yes the most you can do its try to rush them as much as possible.

and think like this, pushing 18k is the same as pushing 15-16k against normal decks.

fair enough.
So what I'm getting out of you guys, thus far, is that I should temper my optimism and that there will be no easy wins, no matter what--which in all sincerity sounds like good advice for tournament preparation.

if you take your time and strike correctly (when rushing the early game) you'll do fine.

AegisCrow wrote:

That just seems like such a bleak outlook on it, though.

Bleak doesn't mean wrong though. It just means bleak.

Ignore what phoenix said. He beat some terrible players at locals and now thinks crossrides aren't a problem.

If I'd like to try something, no matter how difficult, and ask for tips on increasing my chances of success "don't do it, it's too difficult. you will not succeed" is not a helpful response in any way, shape, or form.

I understand that crossrides aren't your personal meta, but there should still be an opportunity to discuss the factors of deck building that try to remove luck as far away from the equation as one can in such a circumstance.

At least Phoenix is trying to be helpful, whereas the majority of the other comments since Edalborez could be summarized to "don't do it, bro. it can't be done."

It can be done, its just boring, Trying to beat cross-rides is basicaly "Run vanilla and power gaining units only"

there is not much you can do, we beat around this bush for MONTHS in discussion man.

Looking at your list, I see that you put an emphasis on your deck hitting good number, and that being it's only trick. Well, lucky for you, hitting magic numbers is what it's all about against cross rides, if you can force 10k worth of shields with both RG columns, then you are in good shape. That and making sure to keep in mind each cross ride gimmick while you play. (You know, not letting Dragonic Overlord, The End hit, saving a PG for overlord persona, taking into account MLB's multiple crit in blocking calculation) Granted you were probably already doing this, but it's really all the advice I can give you on this, otherwise just play as normal.

Also, I was wondering why you don't look into building phantom blaster overlord shaladins. Putting price aside they would give you a much better defensive set up while you tank Dragonic Overlord, The End/MLB.

You might as well. Just keep in mind PBO is pretty much like The End. Except it has nothing going for it other than bulk.

VesperGhoul wrote:

Also, I was wondering why you don't look into building phantom blaster overlord shaladins. Putting price aside they would give you a much better defensive set up while you tank Dragonic Overlord, The End/MLB.

well of course there's no doubt that PBO would be better defensively, but unfortunately price is the deciding factor in whether or not I can play with it. I own zero copies of it, and zero copies of the phantom blaster dragon either, so picking up the whole playset of both would put me back just a bit too much, haha.

on the other hand, though, I think both of them are really boring mechanically, and their counterblasts are just gigantic gambits that opponents can see a mile away--it's really not worth all of that resource depletion for one attack that can be perfect guarded just as easily as anything else. so if I were to use them, I'd be using them for their bulky numbers, which is just boring.

then again, what am I saying? your deck has to vanilla itself out in order to threaten crossrides anyways.

I think that's what I hate about crossrides more than anything else.

AegisCrow wrote:

VesperGhoul wrote:

Also, I was wondering why you don't look into building phantom blaster overlord shaladins. Putting price aside they would give you a much better defensive set up while you tank Dragonic Overlord, The End/MLB.

well of course there's no doubt that PBO would be better defensively, but unfortunately price is the deciding factor in whether or not I can play with it. I own zero copies of it, and zero copies of the phantom blaster dragon either, so picking up the whole playset of both would put me back just a bit too much, haha.

on the other hand, though, I think both of them are really boring mechanically, and their counterblasts are just gigantic gambits that opponents can see a mile away--it's really not worth all of that resource depletion for one attack that can be perfect guarded just as easily as anything else. so if I were to use them, I'd be using them for their bulky numbers, which is just boring.

then again, what am I saying? your deck has to vanilla itself out in order to threaten crossrides anyways.

I think that's what I hate about crossrides more than anything else.

Yeah man, Cross-rides are fucking bullshit, and people said we were no fun-allowed douchebags for thinking they should be banned.

"During your turn" for the +2k would have solved 8/10ths of the issue (the other 2/10 mainly involves how reliable the odds of success are for no cost, and The End having insane support and not losing twin drive).

Crossrides as is make the game boring.

AegisCrow wrote:

If I'd like to try something, no matter how difficult, and ask for tips on increasing my chances of success "don't do it, it's too difficult. you will not succeed" is not a helpful response in any way, shape, or form.

I understand that crossrides aren't your personal meta, but there should still be an opportunity to discuss the factors of deck building that try to remove luck as far away from the equation as one can in such a circumstance.

At least Phoenix is trying to be helpful, whereas the majority of the other comments since Edalborez could be summarized to "don't do it, bro. it can't be done."

The problem is that your premise is retarded. "Guys give me tips on how to win the lottery on average!" You're at a probabilistic disadvantage doing it that way. That's the opposite of the word competitive. We can't help there. Even maximizing your chances is still far below a coinflip.

If you were asking "Guys give me tips on the Monty Hall problem" then I could help you because chance favors you there. But you're not. And the biggest problem is that you're being bull-headed and don't understand that the math is stacked against you. Even if you succeed, it won't be by your own merit. Given that both players are equally skilled, crossride decks win far more than even the best anti-cross deck. It's not that this "isn't our meta". It's that we've thoroughly analyzed the meta and found it to be unwinnable on average unless you use a crossride yourself. So here's the absolute best possible advice you could get in this thread:

Buy a The End deck for around $280 and use it. Using anything else isn't competitive. Not being able to afford it is unfortunate, but not competitive either. Hating Kagero is unfortunate, but not competitive.

Also PBO isn't going to win you tournaments. Your one big play is heavily costed in advance and can fail easily. The End only pays costs when he absolutely can get his ability.

well to be honest even though i played against sorry players t takes sorry players to play meta decks and not be creative at all. atleast v-mundi even though we look at things in a logical way we can use that logic to possibly "kill a crossride".

situation: crossrides are 13k vanguards.

solution: pressure them to guard in the early and mid game with atleast 16k collums. then when said crossride hit's the board you should be able to hit them atleast with the vanguard despite him being a 13k wall.

that's how i got it done at the challenge.

No that's not a solution. Any solution to crossrides cannot also be an equal or better solution to non-crossrides, otherwise it's just a normal strategy. In this instance, you're just telling people to rush early. Which can work only if you have a deck dedicated to it. The moment Turn 4 hits, you're in for another assraping. But the same rush dedicated decks also work against normal decks, so that's not a crossride solution. They happen to work worse against crossrides since Manguard making it to turn 4 is basically death anyway.

The only true way to kill crossrides is using the Murakumo ninja arts :p

It doesn't stop a ride. They can put up one card loss becuase they loose more cards guarding your vanguard (Dragonic Overlord, The End) and you use half as many cards from the opponent's round. One turn, and they make up all the minus you tried to remove.

>.> well it might be a strategy but it works

"reducing chances of losing" is not the same as "winning the lottery", Alice.

do crossride decks have an advantage? clearly, yes. Yamato maybe belittled that advantage slightly by saying it's possible to win, but I don't think that anyone has said that they don't have an advantage overall.

the point of this thread isn't for me to beg for some secret all-knowing advice on how to defeat crossrides without using them in 10 out of 10 games, but rather advice on how to narrow the gap as much as is possible within a given circumstance, with respect to my lack of funds. the relative skill level and luck of players will be uneven no matter what. chance and deck construction are things that are useful in planning, but when the actual game starts, the gap between players will be influence by the whole of those factors. all I seek is advice on how to close the gap as much as possible and allow the relative skill levels of myself and my opponent decide the game as much as they can.

that said, I feel like this thread has reached the end of its purpose. as much advice as could be given has already been given, and your poo-pooing of any optimistic/supportive comments isn't going to help anything else. I think it's not unreasonable to expect nothing else but "crossrides can be beaten because of this anecdotal evidence" and "crossrides are statistically more likely to win because of this math" back and forth, and that's a discussion that goes nowhere.

lock it or whatever you wish to do. nobody is under any obligation to comment in this thread anymore.

AegisCrow wrote:

the point of this thread isn't for me to beg for some secret all-knowing advice on how to defeat crossrides without using them in 10 out of 10 games, but rather advice on how to narrow the gap as much as is possible within a given circumstance, with respect to my lack of funds.

You got that. There is literally nothing else you can do to change your deck given your parameters. Your deck is 1/3 of the equation (Chance and Skill are the other 2/3).

This isn't "shitting" on optimism (see "We value thick skins" in the link). This is the advice you can take away in so few words.

And let's just clarify: "not competitive" is not "0% chance of winning."