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 Unspoken Rules of Vanguard

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Vulcanpeace

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PostSubject: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 08:20

Hi I'm Vulcan
though I've been playing with my brother and friends for a few months I'm still quite new to this game I kinda just wanna hear from the veterans about the unspoken rules of the game,rules that most pros follow but aren't in the book. Here are a few examples that I've learned both from V-mundi and other players ,feel free to state your own tips It will really help not only me but others who have just taken up this amazing game

-Keep your guards until the late game
-when you Mulligan keep at least 1 grade of each and never keep triggers
-riffle shuffle 7 times to prevent bad hands
-always make sure your vanguard attacks second so you don't waste stands and you can give critical triggs to your rear if your opponent over-guards

These are the only ones i can think of for now,I'm sorry if these seem quite basic to some but I'm still pretty new. If you know anymore advanced stuff feel free to post
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Jabberwock

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 08:49

If you guard against vanguard, it's best to guard for two to pass. Always prioritise killing important rearguard that might threaten you, like Silent Tom from OTT or Alice from PM. If the opponent attacks your Grade 3 rearguard, it's best to let it die since Grade 3 has no shield value and it's not worth wasting guard protecting it.

I maybe wrong though. Just my opinion.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 09:33

Vulcanpeace wrote:

Keep your guards until the late game

Care to elaborate because this seems way off base.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 10:05

>Keep your guards until late game
Nooooooo no no no. You guard optimally. If something swings one stage, drop 5k no mater when it is. If they attack 2 stages, drop 10k. If they attack 3 stages then you have decision time. Perfect Guards are the ones you generally save for late game unless they have a devastating on-hit like Stern Blaukluger.

>Never keep triggers in mulligan
Also wrong. I'll do an article about this sometime but in mulligan your first priority is of course at least riding up 1, 2, 3. Your next priority might be split between having early guard (a trigger or so) or getting an extra booster/attacker if your deck is setup heavy. Getting a trigger for mulligan is not exactly a common want but it's certainly not never. They help you stay alive.

>Riffle 7 times
No no no please don't just do this. If you riffle 7 times, the deck will re-organize itself somewhat. Because it's the same "algorithm" back to back. A single shuffle should be: one riffle and one strip. The strip resets the recursion of putting two shuffle types back to back. But if you do 7 of those in a row, you're gold.

>Vanguard attack second
Not really no. In critical decks there's often no reason to attack with a rear-guard first. It generally gives you the most options to attack with a Vanguard first, but it's not necessarily bad to attack with the Vanguard second and only really causes problems if you checked two triggers (less options for where to put them), but some other scenarios can arise. Normal stand trigger decks do generally attack with the vanguard second though so that a checked stand can work on a rear-guard. And there is an instance where you want to attack last with your vanguard (actually a few but this is most common), you're playing a deck capable of standing two or more front-row rear-guards such as Enigman Rain, Asura Kaiser 12-stand, or your Aqua Force vanguard has a 4th attack conditional.

Hope I was able to clear up some of these misconceptions. It's not that any of those are strictly wrong, but rules tend to be more specific than that and also have exceptions.
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Vulcanpeace

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PostSubject: Re:Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 12:46

3XXXDDD wrote:
Vulcanpeace wrote:

Keep your guards until the late game

Care to elaborate because this seems way off base.

Well I've noticed that during local tournaments the guys who usually win never start guarding until their damage zone goes to around 4 or 5 when I managed to ask a few of them why,they didn't know why they did it either,they just do it cause it helps them win more games.I tried the same strategy and it worked.I dont know why but it just works :D
However after reading Alice's Reply I realized that It was more of a misconception than a strategy.probably gonna try it alice's way for a few games to check results
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Vulcanpeace

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 12:56

Alice wrote:
>Keep your guards until late game
Nooooooo no no no. You guard optimally. If something swings one stage, drop 5k no mater when it is.
how about if you don't have a booster on the field and the only guards you have in your hand is a 5k booster and a 10k trigger would you sacrifice the trigg? lose your only booster? let the attack hit?

seeing as the rules I've given have actually been shown as misconceptions,do you think you could give me a few more "actual" unspoken rules that pros do actually follow,It would help me and many other noobs a great deal.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 13:25

Here's the biggest hint of all: There are no Vanguard "pros". Vanguard is a very new game and few of its players even know how to do the math well, much less except any kind of rigor for playing the game like the entire community of Yugioh and Magic. On the whole the skill level of this game's players is in the dumpster.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 14:21

I mean like, fuck it, even if a member here were to win Worlds, we wouldn't go on being a smug (and ignorant) shit about it like Smith. We'd just do the same thing we always do, Substantiate or Shut Up.

However you seem to be interested in rising above that, so welcome.

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Rider Kick

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-24, 15:26

Or be like me as of late. You know, say something stupid then immediately apologize for ignorance and learn from it. :P
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AegisCrow

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 00:21

Vulcanpeace wrote:
Well I've noticed that during local tournaments the guys who usually win never start guarding until their damage zone goes to around 4 or 5 when I managed to ask a few of them why,they didn't know why they did it either,they just do it cause it helps them win more games.

see, in my personal experience, that's not worked out well for me. my main deck uses a limit breaker, and when i was new I tried to rush to taking 4 damage as quickly as possible. yeah, that let me use my fancy ability faster, but it also made each attack I had to block at the end of the game all that much more important to block. I usually wound up being outpaced because of how frantically I had to commit to blocking attacks in my endgame.

the way I play now, I try to pick and choose which attacks I block and which ones I let though. being able to mediate how quickly you take damage gives you options. being at 4 damage means that you're more inclined to have to block your opponent's vanguard (usually their biggest attacker) or you risk them pulling an appropriate number of critical triggers and killing you outright.

in my opinion, blocking everything every single turn can be a foolish waste of resources, but not blocking anything until you hit endgame can be just as foolish.
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TehNACHO

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 00:47

Why guard for 15K on an attack that will do 1 damage in the late game, when you can just guard for 5 or 10K for an attack that will do 1 damage earlier on, while the opponent's field is still developing?
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Black Phoenix

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 04:53

I'm seeing a lot of talk here about when is best to guard in-game, but to a certain extent doesn't it depend on what exactly you have in hand? Sure, guarding small early attacks is always something to consider, if you've gone first, are at G1, and have a hand with 3-4 G3's and one or two G1 or G2, wouldn't it maybe be better to take the damage (unless you're getting rushed for 3+ attacks that turn). so you can guarantee you're going to be able to call something next turn? Maybe not the best example actually :/

I don't think the idea that there's a set rule to follow as to when to guard and when not to guard is quite accurate. I think it's more a case of make a judgement call depending on how that specific game is developing. Sure, there are pointers and advice on situations where it's optimal to guard, but following hard and fast rules seems to inflexible to me. I admit I used to do exactly that though :)
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Epideme

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 05:27

When to guard is waaay too subjective to simply state as a set rule. Saying "keep your guards till the late game" is of course retarded but saying "guard attacks early" is the same thing. Figuring out when to guard is like the only skill you actually need to learn when playing Vanguard and just comes through experience and knowing what your cards and your opponents cards are capable of.
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BrookylnRage

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 07:29

Yeah, like what other says. Having triggers in your hand is not that bad. If some idiot doesn't put the starting VG as booster behind VG and I happen to have a 10k trigger in hand. I will guard it. I always guard at least 1 card a turn if I can, depending on my hand and the opponent's field, since I still gain +1 due to draw and drive check for early G1, G2 VG game.
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TehNACHO

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 12:25

Black Phoenix wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of talk here about when is best to guard in-game, but to a certain extent doesn't it depend on what exactly you have in hand?

Well sure, however

Quote :
Keep your guards until the late game

Keyword here is keep, meaning that if you do have your shielding in the Early/Midgame, you're just going to eat attacks and keep the shielding for the late game. Now, these discussions almost automatically assume you aren't going to misride at the least, but that still would leave 8-9 cards that could be a trigger for shielding by the end of the 3rd turn. Now with a 96.9% chance to see a trigger within that selection, and because the context of the 'rule' basically tells us so, then we must also assume that you do have an early game shield in your hand.

From here, we're back to square one, where guarding in the late game where attacks are almost certainly going to be expensive as hell to guard with all the new decktypes cropping up with their inane power ranges, or guarding earlier on in a fight when many more cheaper opportunities show up, due to the opponent's field probably still developing, and whatever power based skills they have probably won't be properly set up that early on.

Sure, it maybe shouldn't be treated as a set rule to guard cheap attacks so insistently, but it's more than easy to prove that it's both the most optimal choice in a mathematical and a practical point of view, and it's almost suicide to set yourself up to allow the opponent get their power plays to be primed as early as they want by not guarding.


Last edited by TehNACHO on 2013-04-25, 12:29; edited 1 time in total
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farmergiles

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 12:29

Doesn't it kind of depend on the starting vanguard whether you want to put it behind your VG or not? What for example.........let me think....would you do with the starting VG for Neo Nectar who potentially scales up on hit?
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TehNACHO

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 12:32

That has a little less to do with guarding efficiently, and more so with how pressure units work.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-25, 13:21

Epideme wrote:
When to guard is waaay too subjective to simply state as a set rule. Saying "keep your guards till the late game" is of course retarded but saying "guard attacks early" is the same thing. Figuring out when to guard is like the only skill you actually need to learn when playing Vanguard and just comes through experience and knowing what your cards and your opponents cards are capable of.
Actually I have an issue with this. It's not actually subjective and can be objectively substantiated. Given simple if;then statements.

If you have a 5k shield; andif you do not need to use it on your field; andif your opponent attacks 1 stage; then, guard with it.
If you have a 10k shield; andif your opponent attacks 2 stages; then, guard with it.
If you have a 5k shield; andif you need to use it on your field; andif the damage potential for it outweighs the tempo hit you take; then, don't guard and call it.

Etc.
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farmergiles

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-26, 05:22

Sounds like a plan and I've improved in that regard..........just wish I didn't get screwed by triggers relentlessly! :D
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Vulcanpeace

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PostSubject: Re: Unspoken Rules of Vanguard   2013-04-26, 12:26

farmergiles wrote:
Sounds like a plan and I've improved in that regard..........just wish I didn't get screwed by triggers relentlessly! :D

I feel the same way bro T_T
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