HomeHome  V*Mundi Blog  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Break Rides in Decks

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Vulcanpeace

avatar


PostSubject: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 00:29

There have been a lot of these units coming out lately,
they all give 10k and an effect to the g3 that rides over them
I wanted to know what the community's thoughts are on them,
are they unbalanced ? should they be a new staple in competitive decks?
also if you do choose to add break rides to your deck what should you take out and how many should you put in?

side note:Lately I've also been testing out alice's shamsiel deck but im not sure what and how much to take out and put in if I wanted to add remiel.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Scruffy420

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 00:38

Pretty sure the answer you're going to get is break rides are too far off from being released in English to have any useful information.

But to answer your question I don't think they're unbalanced. I'm excited to try one out. I too will be trying Remiel.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Klaus

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 01:15

Some unbalanced (Bad End, Goldcelot) some are ok or bretty gud.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
3XXXDDD
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 05:53

They are not unbalanced inherently.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lightning

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 08:33

Breakrides is powerful.The impact it can make on later stages of the game is huge especially when 11k units looms more frequently.

Spike Brother is one of those clan that has managed to use the Breakride more successfully then any other clans.However,the problem of breakride is the pace of the game it has to play

Very weak against early aggro and early multi attack.They can mess up your future strategy of utilizing Breakride in the later stages of the game.

It's very balanced because of its nature as a LB condition unit.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 09:08

They're not inherently unbalanced, they're just power-creep-y. Luckily, due to the nature of Late Game, the extra +2 stages to vanguard is the same as +1 stage (from normal Power Breakers) and so if you don't consider Kiriel broken, you probably shouldn't consider the extra 10k broken. If it was +15k, then we'd have a problem since it would require physically more cards.

Any of the ones adding critical are essentially useless in late game (this goes for other abilities too like on-hits on the vanguard column) and the abilities that wash like Vowing Sword are also fine. The extra power they get during midgame is actually their problem since no other 11k has two skills. This is where they're arguably power creep.

As with all limit break units, Break Rides are stuck doing basically jack shit until late game (except Genesis and Dark Irregulars which is kind of bullshit but also kind of understandable). This balances out their uncosted wash which doesn't really do much in Vanguard anyway. The problem is that there are certain cards they failed point blank at balancing. Goldcelot, the new DI break ride (which is even better than Goldcelot), Dauntless Dragon, and Bad-End Dragger are just examples.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lightning

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 09:15

I only have problems dealing with Bad End Dragger.The power of RG hitting 30k+ is huge and with Dudley Emperor synergy being so consistent at ending opponent.

Dauntless is very dependent on the unit that uses it.If it's The End that breakrided is about to destroy me with 2 standing arsenal then I would let the initial attack through since Dauntless condition is when VG didn't stand during this battle.

Other then that.Breakrides strategy is easy to counter provided that you have knowledge about your opponent supports

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 10:11

Lightning wrote:
Dauntless is very dependent on the unit that uses it.If it's The End that breakrided is about to destroy me with 2 standing arsenal then I would let the initial attack through since Dauntless condition is when VG didn't stand during this battle.
Then The End persona blasts and stands itself. You can't win with that combo. The moment you're at 4 damage against it, you auto-lose. It does its job just by existing and is completely independent of guard decision.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lightning

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 10:35

I see.It's correct that Dauntless+The End really is a challenging combo to face.

But this type of combo isn't without it's risk though.You have to sacrifice The End early advantage in order for Dauntless Breakride effect to activate.Though that problem does minor error.

However.Stand trigger based The End is the most dangerous build face off against
As shown in one of the blog
(Note:This is a quote from a blog as I cannot post any links)

"News: Kaden Kawakami's National Championship Decklist Leaked
Reigning national champion Kaden Kawakami's decklist has gotten out to the public before Bushiroad USA could publish it on the official portal, breaking the otherwise-tight media blackout that has dominated the Challenge Cup since its opening rounds. In a video interview Kawakami has lain out his entire deck card by card, putting to rest a number of rumors surrounding its makeup. Although some controversy has arisen over Kawakami having possibly emulated a build that he had seen in his local tournaments, the national champion later clarified through Facebook that he had co-developed it with a friend, a situation similar to Smith and Bastianelli's teamwork on the previous championship's Spectral Duke Dragon deck.
Grade 0
x1 Lizard Soldier, Conroe (FVG)
x4 Dragon Monk, Genjo HT
x4 Flame Seed Salamander ST
x2 Lizard Soldier, Gan-Lu ST
x4 Gatling Claw Dragon DT
x2 Dragon Dancer, Monica DT
Grade 1
x3 Wyvern Guard, Barri
x4 Embodiment of Armor, Bahr
x3 Dragon Monk, Gojo
x2 Demonic Dragon Mage, Kimanra
x1 Heatnail Salamander
x1 Flame of Hope, Aermo
Grade 2
x4 Burning Horn Dragon
x3 Cross Shot, Garp
x1 Dragon Knight, Nehalem
x2 Bellicosity Dragon
x2 Wyvern Strike, Tejas
Grade 3
x4 Dragonic Overlord The End
x3 Dragonic Overlord
Probably the most noted feature of the deck is its six stand triggers, previously rumored to be as high as seven or eight, and the absence of critical triggers. While one of Dragonic Overlord The End's strongest features is his ability to multiply the effects of a critical trigger by standing after checking one, Kawakami recognized The End's strategic value as a vanguard whose attack would never be allowed to hit, and instead reinforced his rearguard attacks with stand triggers, taking advantage of Burning Horn Dragon's power-gain skill in the process while also using Flame Seed Salamander's skill to reduce the total number of cards in play, recycling his stands for better rearguard offenses while making it increasingly more difficult for the opponent to defend against The End as the game went on."
Back to top Go down
View user profile
AegisCrow

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 13:07

I like that breakrides are becoming a thing because I like it when games become a series of decisive plays in lategame, and breakrides provide a sudden burst of power at that stage of the game.

I don't feel that breakrides are inherently overpowered, since they're a huge beacon of 'SAVE YOUR PERFECT GUARD" as soon as they're ridden. It would be fair to say, however, that some breakrides are more powerful than others.

I disagree with alice in regards to +1crit breakrides being useless. if you've had a bad series of turns and have taken more damage than your opponent, that extra critical adds more pressure for your opponent to block, if possible. in that regard, it serves to either equalize damage somewhat, or significantly reduce the resources they have in hand. it also allows vanguards, whom wouldn't be able to otherwise, become a significant threat to their opponent as soon as their opponent is at 3 damage.

they're probably the bottom-line of what breakrides are capable of, but I wouldn't call them useless.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
newbishop

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 13:24

AegisCrow wrote:
I disagree with alice in regards to +1crit breakrides being useless. if you've had a bad series of turns and have taken more damage than your opponent, that extra critical adds more pressure for your opponent to block, if possible. in that regard, it serves to either equalize damage somewhat, or significantly reduce the resources they have in hand. it also allows vanguards, whom wouldn't be able to otherwise, become a significant threat to their opponent as soon as their opponent is at 3 damage.

So it makes them situational at best since it would imply you fell behind badly. Assuming 3 dmg for the opponent (mid game), at least 12 cards in the deck will have been used, so a perfect guard is likely to be in his or her hand.

Due to it being a break ride it's also a one turn only thing, it really isn't impressive unless you somehow continuously break ride into the same one. And, again, for the same reason, keeping them at 3 dmg isn't a viable strategy, so it just becomes redundant since at 4 dmg it would've been guarded anyway. Stern does this much better, or Reijy if he were more consistent.

It also doesn't help that the clan with the purely crit gaining break ride right now is Royal Paladin, which is notorious for it's fast field filling and rushing tactics. Honestly, only Tachikaze's break ride seems to be the only good crit gaining one, and it's mostly because of the other effect it has, and the less redundant support it has.


Last edited by newbishop on 2013-06-06, 13:36; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 13:25

Lightning wrote:
However.Stand trigger based The End is the most dangerous build face off against
As shown in one of the blog
(Note:This is a quote from a blog as I cannot post any links)"

Okay, Lightning, that was ONE guy in ONE tournament who was only playing like a few games in one sitting. You can't just say that's the best build based on that.

Also the reason V-Mundi doesn't allow people to post direct links to that blog specifically is because it's been shown the guy running it is dumb and pretty much ignorant of actual scientific method, and therefore isn't a valid form of evidence.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lich_Lord_Fortissimo

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 13:34

AegisCrow wrote:
I like that breakrides are becoming a thing because I like it when games become a series of decisive plays in lategame, and breakrides provide a sudden burst of power at that stage of the game.

I don't feel that breakrides are inherently overpowered, since they're a huge beacon of 'SAVE YOUR PERFECT GUARD" as soon as they're ridden. It would be fair to say, however, that some breakrides are more powerful than others.

I disagree with alice in regards to +1crit breakrides being useless. if you've had a bad series of turns and have taken more damage than your opponent, that extra critical adds more pressure for your opponent to block, if possible. in that regard, it serves to either equalize damage somewhat, or significantly reduce the resources they have in hand. it also allows vanguards, whom wouldn't be able to otherwise, become a significant threat to their opponent as soon as their opponent is at 3 damage.

they're probably the bottom-line of what breakrides are capable of, but I wouldn't call them useless.

The key word being 'if'. And equalizing damage is pretty much the best case scenario. It's still a problem because you had to take damage to equalize it, which really isn't an excuse for eating the damage in the first place. Spino Driver is okay because with the correct RGs it's a +1 as opposed to +0 washes other Break Rides have, but really it's about as useful as it gets. That's pretty much one of the (many) reasons not to be a fan of Gancelot.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
AegisCrow

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 14:05

I never implied it was the plan to eat damage just so you can get +1 crit on your next turn, nor would it ever be an ideal plan to keep your opponent at 3 damage.

Alice said [this subcategory of cards is useless]
I replied [here is an instance in which said subcategory of cards has a use]

beyond the unfortunate scenario in which i explained their particular advantages, Breakrides in general serve as fantastic secondary grade 3's because they always increase the power of the grade 3 you WANT to ride by merit of having been drawn first. it doesn't matter if you're pulling of a big ability or not--the +10K bonus pushes your vanguard into power levels where it's more efficient to perfect guard than to not. +1 crit adds pressure to block the attack in more instances than attacks with lower crit. I would think that would be common sense.

additionally, all breakrides are 11K, aren't they? that gives them more worth in rearguard slots over 10kG3s that don't have rearguard abilities.

I would argue that, for these reasons, all breakrides are useful, although some are certainly more useful than others.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
TheReapr

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 16:38

Lich_Lord_Fortissimo wrote:
Okay, Lightning, that was ONE guy in ONE tournament who was only playing like a few games in one sitting. You can't just say that's the best build based on that.

I actually took the time to watch his YouTube post-tournament "interview". What further backs up Lich_Lord's comment is that in 2/3 of his top 8 matches the opponent was grade locked. One was locked at 1 and the other at 0 (if I remember correctly). He also mentioned that he had another match before the top 8 cut where an opponent was grade locked. He admits to almost losing to the only deck that didn't get locked on him (MLB) in the top 8. I think he said that his opponent didn't really draw any triggers. That is at least 3 games that are known where his opponent was grade locked, and 2 at critical points in the tourney. I think it was an "out-of-the-box" approach to building the deck because it was generally accepted that you use 7-8 critical triggers in a "The End" deck and most likely used by the other "The End" decks in the tourney, but by no means is it the best "The End" build.

On topic for a second. Since this primarily involves discussion about the Japan OCG (since we have no break rides in English). Even coming off of restriction "The End" is not faring well in the open division, with one top 16 appearance. In the junior division he has made some appearances into the top 8 and taking the overall top spot at the last Fighter's Road stop (Dauntless-less), but I can't really say how viable that division is given the age ranges and what would seem to be an increased chance for misplays. I wouldn't use it as a baseline for the meta. Even during the no restrictions tournament as mentioned above he didn't do well. The format is and will continue to be dominated by Eradicators/Liberators at least until set 12 comes out.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thym4n

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 18:12

I think break rides are ok

the only problem is when i think about them. IF your opponent goes first adn you both play break ride decks, assuming everything goes as planned, your opponents going to get to break ride first. Assuming its something rediculous like Bad End dragger, your opponents gonna widdle you down to very low resources before you break ride. Even if you survive, you have very little resources to break ride and finish them off. The only problem i have with break rides are the ridiculous ones that are just overkill. OTher than that, i agree break rides are a really interesting and competitive way to play into the late game.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Alice
Admin
avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 20:38

AegisCrow wrote:
I never implied it was the plan to eat damage just so you can get +1 crit on your next turn, nor would it ever be an ideal plan to keep your opponent at 3 damage.

Alice said [this subcategory of cards is useless]
I replied [here is an instance in which said subcategory of cards has a use]
Congratulations. You made a point in the strictest, most literal and pedantic way possible. Now that you've accomplished exactly nothing and decided to take the letter of my statement rather than the known-spirit of the statement: let me direct you to the search function where you can find me pointing out exactly that exception multiple times on this very forum. Including some others you didn't think of. The point is that +1 crit in late game is not a viable main strategy. That's not something you build a deck around because it's situational. A good player within average statistical outcomes is going to be at the same subgame as her opponent and at that time, each one can sudden death each other. This is why Crit is not worth putting on a LB card. The larger point being made is Bushiroad's incompetent design of their own mechanics—which we players understand far better.

Also apparently I need to remind Reapr that tournaments are not a form of evidence, they're an inductive fallacy for reasons listed about a thousand goddamn times. In fact, I think that terrible non-argument was made so much in the Vanguard community that I included it in the about page.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Phantokaxl

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-06, 21:13

thym4n wrote:
your opponents gonna widdle you down to very low resources before you break ride. Even if you survive, you have very little resources to break ride and finish them off.

Unless your'e playing eradicators which not only have a consistent but strong late game finisher but with the release of sweep commando and devil blade chouho, have now access to a powerful mid-game.

If you're playing genesis then once you get your Artemis engine rolling you won't have to worry about resources since your hand size will be relatively large and you'll be able to continue the pressure well into late game

Let's not forget liberators which not only can hit for ridiculous stages due to goldcelot but also have a 11k vg that fills up the field with superior calls and can hit for unblockable numbers
Back to top Go down
View user profile
TheReapr

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-07, 02:01

Alice wrote:
Also apparently I need to remind Reapr that tournaments are not a form of evidence, they're an inductive fallacy for reasons listed about a thousand goddamn times. In fact, I think that terrible non-argument was made so much in the Vanguard community that I included it in the about page.

You are absolutely right, the latter half of my post was indeed an inductive fallacy. i will work on doing a better job of not falling into that trap.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Scruffy420

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-07, 04:11

On a side note, the new DI break ride is frickin amazing
Back to top Go down
View user profile
zaglier

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-07, 18:18

Alice wrote:
They're not inherently unbalanced, they're just power-creep-y. Luckily, due to the nature of Late Game, the extra +2 stages to vanguard is the same as +1 stage (from normal Power Breakers) and so if you don't consider Kiriel broken, you probably shouldn't consider the extra 10k broken. If it was +15k, then we'd have a problem since it would require physically more cards.

Any of the ones adding critical are essentially useless in late game (this goes for other abilities too like on-hits on the vanguard column) and the abilities that wash like Vowing Sword are also fine. The extra power they get during midgame is actually their problem since no other 11k has two skills. This is where they're arguably power creep.

As with all limit break units, Break Rides are stuck doing basically jack shit until late game (except Genesis and Dark Irregulars which is kind of bullshit but also kind of understandable). This balances out their uncosted wash which doesn't really do much in Vanguard anyway. The problem is that there are certain cards they failed point blank at balancing. Goldcelot, the new DI break ride (which is even better than Goldcelot), Dauntless Dragon, and Bad-End Dragger are just examples.

Um, an extra 10k on vanguard attack does end up being an extra card used, unless you are guarding for one to pass, they have no vanguard booster, or you are using a perfect guard.

Garmore +6k booster in LB state = 21k -> 2-10ks on your 10k vanguard makes it 2 pass (2 cards used)
BreakRide Random10kG3 + 6k booster = 26k -> 2-10ks + 1-5k on your 10k vanguard makes it 2 pass (3 cards used)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
newbishop

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-07, 18:56

zaglier wrote:
Alice wrote:
They're not inherently unbalanced, they're just power-creep-y. Luckily, due to the nature of Late Game, the extra +2 stages to vanguard is the same as +1 stage (from normal Power Breakers) and so if you don't consider Kiriel broken, you probably shouldn't consider the extra 10k broken. If it was +15k, then we'd have a problem since it would require physically more cards.

Any of the ones adding critical are essentially useless in late game (this goes for other abilities too like on-hits on the vanguard column) and the abilities that wash like Vowing Sword are also fine. The extra power they get during midgame is actually their problem since no other 11k has two skills. This is where they're arguably power creep.

As with all limit break units, Break Rides are stuck doing basically jack shit until late game (except Genesis and Dark Irregulars which is kind of bullshit but also kind of understandable). This balances out their uncosted wash which doesn't really do much in Vanguard anyway. The problem is that there are certain cards they failed point blank at balancing. Goldcelot, the new DI break ride (which is even better than Goldcelot), Dauntless Dragon, and Bad-End Dragger are just examples.

Um, an extra 10k on vanguard attack does end up being an extra card used, unless you are guarding for one to pass, they have no vanguard booster, or you are using a perfect guard.

Garmore +6k booster in LB state = 21k -> 2-10ks on your 10k vanguard makes it 2 pass (2 cards used)
BreakRide Random10kG3 + 6k booster = 26k -> 2-10ks + 1-5k on your 10k vanguard makes it 2 pass (3 cards used)

As I am sure you can read (it's in the quote as well) it actually ends up being the same (if not worse) than having a Power Breaker (Garmore, Cocytus, Kiriel, etc) for the two turns late game tends to last, so unless you keep break riding into break rides, it would be the same or worse in terms of shielding to defend a Break Ride turn once, to defending a power breaker twice.

Power breakers already hitting stage 3 without triggers considered is enough to consider it no guard or perfect guard (or having two 10k shields) only that the break ride does it for one turn, rather than two.

Of course, this is the justification to the 10k power gain. The actual debate on balance really comes on the additional skill the Break Ride gives, depending on the kind of support the clan has.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
zaglier

avatar


PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   2013-06-07, 19:43

The following assumes the opponent does not have an available perfect guard.

Breakride:
turn1 - 10+10+6 = 26k -> 25k shield for 2 pass
turn2 - 10+6 = 16k -> 15k shield for 2 pass

Total, 40k shield, 3-10ks, 2-5ks, 5 cards. (You used 1 card to ride)

Powerbreaker:
turn1 - 10+5+6 = 21k -> 20k shield for 2 pass
turn2 - 10+5+6 = 21k -> 20k shield for 2 pass

Total, 40k shield, 4-10ks, 4 cards. (You used 0 cards to ride)

So disregarding additional effects, breakriding caused the opponent to use 1 extra card to guard while you used 1 extra card to ride. Of course, if the opponent had a perfect guard, he would end up using less shield (15k vs 20k) and the same amount of cards (4 cards).

Seems like breakrides are all about the additional effects then.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Break Rides in Decks   

Back to top Go down
 
Break Rides in Decks
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Moved: http://v-mundi.com - VMundi :: Newbie Lounge-
Jump to: