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Alice
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PostSubject: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 14:00

Okay in the wake of all these laughably bad translation errors, I'd like to get a thread started on some of them. Just for kicks and fun.

Let's get this shit started. This one isn't so much an "error" as it is a case of Japanese puns fucking everything up to high hell.


The name of this card has been translated to "Phantasmagoric Snowy Wind, Shirayuki" by whatever person/team. Okay, that immediately struck me as odd and I checked the Kanji. Something bizarre is going on here.

夢幻 の 風花 シラユキ
Edit: first character confirmed as 夢 (Mu)

So that's the original. I'm assuming the first illegible Kanji is some kind of "Mu", but doesn't appear to be 無 (nothingness). But it's clear that it must be Mu because the reading of the two Kanji are as follows:
むげん (MuGeN) = Infinity usually (in this case, Illusory vision. Like an Apparition. Also possible Dreamlike illusion.)
かざはな (KaZaHaNa) = Windflower or Snowflake

So we have kind of an issue here. This name is punny as all fuck. The readings tell us the pronunciation of the second Kanji set is Kazahana which literally translates to "Windflower". However, the Japanese are poetic and they like to call beautiful things by their poetic descriptors. "Windflower" is their word for our word "Snowflake". Clearly with the flavor text, Katakana name, and the background the proper translation is just Snowflake.

The second word is Mugen. This is a big problem. Mugen means infinity usually. The Kanji are 無限 or Mu meaning "nothing" and Gen meaning "restriction". Literally "no restriction" or infinite. The problem is that the second Kanji in it isn't restriction. It's 幻 (Gen) meaning "illusion". If the first Kanji is 夢 "Mu" meaning a vision or a dream. Something that basically isn't real. In this context, it appears to be "vision" since dream doesn't make sense. Nothing about her flavor or appearance would suggest dream is accurate. This is where we encounter a problem with the original translation. The problem with "Phantasmagoric" is that is refers to something very very specific. Phantasm coming from "ghost" and agoreuein meaning "to speak publicly". The meaning of these etymological roots is "ghosts in a stage play or opera" because they were used as props. Modern versions of the word can also mean that you're having a dream or dreamlike state where the line between reality and illusion is blurred. The problem with that though, is that the translators assumed Mu meant "dream" and stuck this incorrect definition of Phantasmagoric on that. I believe this is wrong in those two ways.

Illusory Snowflake, Shirayuki is a more accurate translation, I feel, and it doesn't sacrifice any of the flavor that the Japanese text puts into it. English is simply less poetic at times. The only other proper words I can think of are Spectral or Apparition but that focuses on it being a spirit which isn't implied here. Just that it's an illusion. Either way, Illusory Snowflake works.

As for Shirayuki, you wouldn't want to translate this out. シラユキ is in Katakana so you leave these alone and pronounce them as-is. If you did translate what it means to say, you'd be saying "White Snow". So it'd be super redundant like Illusory Snowflake, White Snow. It also is the proper name for the princess "Snow White" who is usually properly called "Shirayuki Hime" because she's specifically a princess. If we wanted to play fast and loose with the translation just for poetry sake, we could do either "Mirage Princess, Snow White" or "Snowfall Mirage, Shirayuki". I feel these are far less accurate, however. Mirage is actually a good catch-all term for Mu-Gen, though. It fits the idea of it being a vision and an illusion (both words are similar but nuanced). Snow itself it known to cause a mirage, and if she's a yuki-onna (possibly) then one of their capabilities is snow cloaking. So we'll see what Bushiroad wants to call it, but for now I think the most accurate is Illusory Snowflake, Shirayuki.

In any scenario, I hope I made a good case for this the way I did for the Lord keyword recently, and before when I clarified Magician of Quantum Mechanics.


Last edited by Alice on 2012-11-27, 21:09; edited 2 times in total
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 16:24

Shirayuki, I believe, actually is the Japanese name for the character Snow White.

That said I -believe- this card depicts a yuki-onna, which would mean that while Phantasmagoric isn't an exact translation it would be correct in communicating that the unit is ethereal/ghostly. Illusory Snowflake is more accurate, but it's also more stilted (from my POV) because it doesn't really fit the normal flow of the english language- if you say the words to yourself, the combination is odd, and it also sounds more like you're describing an actual snowflake which isn't there as opposed to the title of a ghost who manifests in snow.

On the other hand, Phantasmagoric Snowy Wind is derpy sounding too.

As an alternate, how about "Snowfall Illusion/Phantasm, Shirayuki"? It's not as accurate, but I think it communicates the same basic concept without sounding quite as weird in my head.
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Lockon Stratos

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 16:43

Do I need a new prescription, or are those FEATHERS on her sleeves? Could that possibly mean that there's also a Crane yokai(Is there a name for those? I've read some folklore involving magical Cranes turning into people, but do they have a specific name, like Tanuki, Kitsune or Oni? Cause I haven't found one yet.) involved here, as well as our ice lady friend the Yuki-Onna(Just clarifying for those who don't know what the heck that is.)?
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 16:45

Lockon Stratos wrote:
Do I need a new prescription, or are those FEATHERS on her sleeves? Could that possibly mean that there's also a Crane yokai(Is there a name for those? I've read some folklore involving magical Cranes turning into people, but do they have a specific name, like Tanuki, Kitsune or Oni? Cause I haven't found one yet.) involved here, as well as our ice lady friend the Yuki-Onna(Just clarifying for those who don't know what the heck that is.)?

I believe they're ice crystals.

Name is snow white.

Ice themed card.

Pretty damn sure that's a yuki-onna, particularly since... hang on, TO WIKIPEDIA.

"Yuki-onna appears on snowy nights as a tall, beautiful woman with long black hair and blue lips. Her inhumanly pale or even transparent skin makes her blend into the snowy landscape (as famously described in Lafcadio Hearn's Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things). She sometimes wears a white kimono,[3] but other legends describe her as nude, with only her face and hair standing out against the snow.[4] Despite her inhuman beauty, her eyes can strike terror into mortals. She floats across the snow, leaving no footprints (in fact, some tales say she has no feet, a feature of many Japanese ghosts), and she can transform into a cloud of mist or snow if threatened."

Yeah I'm pretty sure that's the spirit they're alluding to here. The details aren't an exact match, but Tamamo's card doesn't actually depict her transforming into the emperor's wife or contain reference to poisoning anything.
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Mizuki

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 16:47

all i know is that card looks fucking cool.
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Lockon Stratos

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 16:49

Oh, I knew what is was, and was going to put a little explanation for those who didn't, but train of thought wrecked. Anyway, I was wondering if it was referencing TWO things instead of the one. The more and more I look at it, I see not only feathers, but defined wings. Either my insanity is affecting my vision, my glasses is messed up, or there IS something to it. I dunno, just a thought.
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zawarudo

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 18:56

The translation is correct actually. The first kanji is 夢, not 無. The translation you're thinking of is 無限, which means infinity. 夢幻 is also "mugen", but because the kanji are different, the meaning is more akin to dreams, fantasy or visions. In this case, phantasmagoric can be a correct translation.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 19:59

ScarletWeather wrote:
Shirayuki, I believe, actually is the Japanese name for the character Snow White.
Not just believe, it is. I mentioned that in my OP actually. She's called Shirayuki Hime though since she's a Princess. Though, it's not hard to believe that they'd leave that off the card. So as far as I'm concerned, she's named "Snow White" in English.

Quote :
That said I -believe- this card depicts a yuki-onna, which would mean that while Phantasmagoric isn't an exact translation it would be correct in communicating that the unit is ethereal/ghostly. Illusory Snowflake is more accurate, but it's also more stilted (from my POV) because it doesn't really fit the normal flow of the english language- if you say the words to yourself, the combination is odd, and it also sounds more like you're describing an actual snowflake which isn't there as opposed to the title of a ghost who manifests in snow.
See here's the problem I ran into. I first thought of a yukionna but I don't think Snowwomen can have light hair? That could just be an art style choice but I was getting the distinct impression she's not a youkai. It still could be, but I want to be sure before going that far. So far there's no indication from the name or flavor that this is an actual ghost.

Now, I get that Illusory Snowflake is kind of pretentious or odd in English, but really I can't think of a better way to put it. Snowy Wind makes absolutely no sense after all. The word means "snow flake" not wind flower. So you couldn't just take part of the root word "wind" and toss it in there with the compound meaning and call it a day like these translators do. But what the hell else do you call it?! The closest you can get really is either being redundant or just using "crystal". And while Illusory Crystal flows better, it's totally incorrect. Crystals are just structure types and it fails to capture the fact that she's a water crystal specifically. And specifically one formed in the clouds.You know, like how Murakumo's name means? Gathering Clouds. I dunno, I think Illusory Snowflake, Shirayuki/SnowWhite could work. It's accurate, captures the spirit of the name, and while doesn't initially flow well, it could grow on us. Sure as hell more accurate than Phantasmagoric Snowy Wind :S

Quote :
On the other hand, Phantasmagoric Snowy Wind is derpy sounding too.
Exactly.

Quote :
As an alternate, how about "Snowfall Illusion/Phantasm, Shirayuki"? It's not as accurate, but I think it communicates the same basic concept without sounding quite as weird in my head.
I really dunno about that. It'd definitely have to be Illusion. Phantasm is wrong since none of the words mean or even imply that. They're very specific metaphysical phenomenon that don't simply mean an illusion that's not really there. Mirage is actually closer to accurate than Phantasm. I know a mirage scientifically has some optics connotations but if she IS a Yuki-Onna, that's actually part of what they do. They specifically blend into the snow as if cloaking like a mirage. I don't think snowfall really works though. I mean a snowfall is a specific event. A gentle falling of the snow in general. This is a title. See if this was German we could just call her Eisblumen and be done with it. Hell if she is acceptable as Snow White, it could just be Mirage Princess, Snow White. But god dammit you know it won't be that easy and it certainly won't be considered accurate.

I'll stick with this until I can think of something both poetic AND accurate.

zawarudo wrote:
The translation is correct actually. The first kanji
is 夢, not 無. The translation you're thinking of is 無限, which means
infinity. 夢幻 is also "mugen", but because the kanji are different, the
meaning is more akin to dreams, fantasy or visions. In this case,
phantasmagoric can be a correct translation.
That's the second time you've jumped the gun on a translation post of mine incorrectly. We KNOW the first Kanji isn't 無 and I'm obviously well aware that 無限 is infinity since I actually stated that. Since we know that Mu (夢) is the correct first character now, which I suspected, then my translation is definitely fine. Phantasmagoric isn't more accurate than Oneiros and both would sound stupid and be just as irrelevant to the nature of the name in both languages.

The translation should be literally as accurate as possible as well as be accurate to the spirit of the words. In both languages. Hell even Hallucination is accurate. And as I stated, there are problems with using the word Phantasmagoric to mean what the translators wanted it to mean. Mirage really does work better if we don't use Illusion.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 20:17

Also edited the OP to reflect new findings.
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zawarudo

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 20:22

Actually, your 風花 isn't right either. It's KaZaHaNa. The Kanji is supposed to go together, which means something like "flurry of snow in a clear sky". Snowy Wind can work as just a literal meaning of it.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-27, 21:07

zawarudo wrote:
Actually, your 風花 isn't right either. It's KaZaHaNa. The Kanji is supposed to go together, which means something like "flurry of snow in a clear sky". Snowy Wind can work as just a literal meaning of it.
I admit that it's kaza, because my hand automatically types kaze (like it does for shiro when I type shira) which is a common typo for Romaji, but I'll need to see a source on the other bit. Any knowledge I have or have researched on kazahana points to it meaning snowflake. With no connotations of specific weather patterns or storms.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-28, 21:46

Incidentally, just an offhand point:

The translation you're seeing circulating, the original one? Most of these seem to be from Neo Ark Cradle, which is right now one of the bigger sources as far as things like early translations for KeroKero Ace go. You can probably blame the resident translator on these- he's known for playing fast and loose with naming and shorthanding skills to make sure cards go up a little faster.That's why it took so long for anyone to spot "Lord"- he translated it erroneously the first time since there wasn't much practical gameplay difference in "units which share a clan" and "units which have a different clan" as far as the restriction went until we got confirmed hybrids, and then he just shorthanded it every other time he translated a unit with the skill rather than clarifying.

Generally he's a good source, but he's only just higher than whoever translated the new GP stand trigger as "Loonbau".
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-28, 22:23

I actually knew that. 3D was telling me about NAC for a while and I really wanted to go join and see what the thought processes behind some of these translations were. I guess I know now

>Loonbau
What the fuck am I reading

I'll go look at the forum. I really want to fix this erroneous shit on the wikia but I feel like they'll just revert/ban because lol I'm not from Neo Ark Cradle
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-28, 23:13

Wikia is a different group than NAC. One of our mods is also a contributor there and works with Ark, but they're a different community with overlap. They're also if anything faster and looser on the translating front. Does anyone else here remember "Sage of Holywood"?

Loonbau was how somebody on Wikia decided to render the phonetic "Ruunbau". Because god forbid Runebau or Lunebau at all somehow make more sense- if we had higher resolution scans of the unit or lore I could figure out which of those two would be more appropriate.
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-29, 00:29

They might as well have said "Foolbau" instead of "Fullbau".

Yeah the Wikia gave us the WONDERFUL translation of Magician of Quantum Mechanics with the wrong conditional, that made it seem optional. So we all thought you could move him in with Trapezist and net a +1 for free.
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-29, 15:05

So I've had a problem with "Sentinel" lately.


They translated this keyword as "Sentinel". I believe this to be an error. But more of an honest mistake than incompetence. The word Sentinel in English has some very specific nuances to the pen and paper definition that I wasn't sure would've been captured by a Japanese word Bushiroad uses. I think my hunch was right.

守護者 is the word used.

守 - shu - guard, defend, protect, conserve
護 - go - protect, guard, shelter
者 - sha - that which, he who, those who, someone who
Shugosha all together.

Now this has a very specific nuance in Japanese. There are a lot of words for "protectorlike" things in Japanese. Shugosha, Hogosha, Higosha, etc. And each one is much more specific than just meaning "Guardian". Hogosha would be something like a foster parent or your mom; they defend you as a child and help raise you. Like our English word "Parent or Guardian". The Guardian part would be the specifically nuanced word Hogosha is referencing. Similarly, Shugosha doesn't just mean any old guardian. They're someone who protects something from a foreign enemy or physical threat. Like how a Phalanx formation protects the man to your left. It's a very active kind of protector. That very specific kind of protection is what Shugosha means.

However, the English Sentinel is a very different kind of "Guard". This is more like a security guard. Or a watchman. It very specifically means someone who watches over to protect. This is a very passive kind of guardian. Like a tower guard, a gate Sentry, a stone statue in an ancient tomb (actually this is called a ward, but people use metaphor for this), or someone whose mere presence acts as a deterrent.

You can see that a Shugosha is someone who actively engages in the protection like a living shield and a Sentinel passively sits back and acts as a witness and deterrent, only engaging when someone is stupid enough to cause trouble. That's just the problem; I don't see Perfect Guards being like "Sentinels" sitting there watching and making their rounds until they have to repel an attack occasionally or call the police to report a break in :P. Perfect guards fit Shugosha by the English word "Protector". That has a very active and appropriate connotation. Like a superhero or Roman soldier.

Whatever word Bushiroad eventually go with, I think we can all at least agree that it can be the word "Guardian" since Guardian fits Shugosha, Protector, and Sentinel equally.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-29, 19:28

Agreed on this one. I didn't even know the specific Japanese word used but "Guardian" is one of the original translations attempts I saw flying around, and then it got "settled" as Sentinel. I've never been fond of that translation for the same reason.

Personally I'd have gone with "Defender", as in "Defenders of the Universe" and such. The term is so associated with superheroes that it fits the active-protector image.
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-11-29, 20:12

I actually think I like Defender and Protector more than Guardian. The reason being is that Guardian typically has more passive connotations similarly to Sentinel. Like a watchkeeper. Defenders and Protectors are actively preventing bodily harm. Shields do so with a physical apparatus.

Any case, Defender or Protector both sound good. And while Protector is probably more definitionally correct in the strictest of senses, Defender flows easier and can be distinguished from the term "Perfect Guard". Where Defender is the name of the KEYWORD ONLY and Perfect Guard is the name of the card archetype in general. There are going to be so many people get these confused. And I don't want to see people calling PGs "Protectors" since it's easier to make that mistake with that word. Less people would be inclined to just call them Defenders.
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-12-19, 14:55


Okay Bushiroad...we need to talk. This dragon. What the hell is this?
So you're calling it Eradicator Vowing Dragon.

Yet looking at the Kanji:
抹消者 ボーイングソード・ドラゴン

ソード・ドラゴン - Getting this out of the way first, I think we can all agree this says Soodo Doragon. Sword Dragon.

抹消者 - THIS, however does not say Eradicator. They're somehow making a pun with an English word, though I'm not sure how since there are no on/kunyomi readings of those Kanji that follow the katakana above: イレイザー (Ireizaa) or Eraser.
Breaking down the Kanji meanings gives: 抹 (erase), 消 (to make vanish, erase), 者 (he who/that which).
So both the given reading and the meaning is just "Eraser". Not eradicator. Are you just trying to look cool by making it one-up on Eraser because there are essentially two words for Eraser? Protip: English doesn't do this. It's just Eraser.

ボーイング - The one that's difficult is this bullshit. And I mean bullshit. It can be pronounced generally two ways: voeing and boeing with long o's. More commonly would be boeing. So either it's Boeing, Bowing (long o), or Voeing. The latter of which is a real thing. Voing, spelled just like that, is a Japanese automotive company that spells their name in English this way. And in Japanese they spell it with the exact same kana. So there's precedent for Voing, though it appears to be completely made up. There is no fucking preceding for Vowing and English doesn't even have a long-o word "vow". Boeing is just as likely if Voing is, since the only thing that refers to is the aeronautical company. If an automotive company is on the table, so is an aeronautical one. More so since Boeing actually makes things that fly. Most likely the actual word being used is Bowing. As in "to arch or bend" or "to create a rainbow". Probably the former of those two.

So here's my rationale for bowing over whatever the fuck bullshit "vowing" is supposed to be: Bowing is the arching or bending of something. This dragon is an Eraser, specifically someone who vanishes units with lightning. Archbending is often an attribute of lightning to the point that lighting is sometimes simply referred to as archs. Since the word in question is Katakana, it's foreign and most likely English, meaning bowing makes fine sense in this case.

tl;dr
Eraser Bowing Sword Dragon.

Edit: Look, I get that it's your intellectual property and you can do whatever you want, but at least try not to be illiterate in two different language, please Bushiroad. Ireizaa is not "Eradicator" and Booing is not Vowing with ow as in cow. If it's vowing as in "making a pledge", then you should've spelled it correctly in kana. If you type Eraser in kana, then don't fucking call it Eradicator. That's confusing and pointless.


Last edited by Alice on 2012-12-19, 15:33; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edit: Bushiroad official)
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-12-19, 15:23

It's being called Eradicator because, weirdly, despite the name very definitely not BEING that...

http://bushiroad.fm/post/en/1863/Eradicator+Vowing+Sword+Dragon+Skill.html

Bushiroad has officially confirmed the English name as Eradicator, Vowing Sword Dragon.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-12-19, 15:31

ScarletWeather wrote:
It's being called Eradicator because, weirdly, despite the name very definitely not BEING that...

http://bushiroad.fm/post/en/1863/Eradicator+Vowing+Sword+Dragon+Skill.html

Bushiroad has officially confirmed the English name as Eradicator, Vowing Sword Dragon.
So I was 2/3 correct then. It's Eraser ____ Sword Dragon in translation. However, in English they've chosen not to translate it, but to embellish instead. As for Vowing, I've left a question about that since vowing with a long-o isn't even a word in english and the kana do not denote a short-o.
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-12-19, 16:42

It's Bushiroad.

Nobody working for them appears to be an actual native english speaker. Would certainly explain things like Devil Summoner's english-language flavor text.

(seriously what the hell hastly)
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-12-19, 17:31

Why can't Singaporeans speak English, yet they attempt to?
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mastermune

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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-12-19, 17:58

Probably the same reason Russians translated Final Fantasy Tactics for PS1, it was cheaper
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PostSubject: Re: Translation Errors General   2012-12-20, 07:41

Alice wrote:
Why can't Singaporeans speak English, yet they attempt to?
We speak Singlish one, you know one la.
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