Fairness in crossrides (a note to alice)

I get that crossrIdes are broken, they add strength that changes the game mechanics, I guess after being screwed over time and time again by konamI I just get used to broken game mechanics. but there its one card that gives me hope, and that's excapulate the blaster. It Is very broken, yet balanced In its requirements. Id like your thoughts on this card, and the idea that it may be the future of "proper" cross rides.

What does Exculpate have to do with crossrides? It's a final turn gambit. Crossrides are "I have 13k, hope you can make 18k columns" in 7/10 games.

7 out of 10 games you get to grade 3*

I really don't want to be the one who has to spoil this, but if I'm going to see probability claims of Cross-Rides, I don't want it to be half baked.

Edalborez your making my point. Crossrides should be a last turn gambit. Exapulater is 12k it can be hit by midnight invader and its clones. Bushiroad cant erase what its made, but it can edit, ban and limit. This was a question of opinion, not a debate. I'm just saying excapulate looks like a stepin the right direction.

Exculpate being 12k barely matters; it turns into 9k Blaster Blade after it attacks (which it should be able to, as you shouldn't ride without BB in soul and BB is pretty much the most reliably searchable unit in the game). So you minus by riding Exculpate on top of whatever your G3 was, and then have to minus again next turn (if there is a next turn) to reride another G3 over Blaster Blade.

Which maybe sounds fair except you also just killed your opponent's field. As in, the same thing the terrible on-hit megablasts of Demon Eater and Lohengrin do. Without being in Limit Break status (though this is basically a late game setup anyways), without a megablast cost, without being on-hit. For only CB:3. If you didn't win, you probably bought yourself a turn even considering your now-9k vanguard.

Exculpate is also searchable himself.

Exculpate is not balanced.

excapulate can be needs blaster blade to functIon, and will most likely not hit over 25k, assuming you dump a 0 1 3 with his effect. most ending vanguards, excapulate, reijI, cross riders, wIll be null guarded anyway. and I'd he doesn't hit you've pretty much minused your game away. I didn't say he was perfect, I saId he was a step I'm the right direction.

Raulm3 wrote:

Edalborez your making my point. Crossrides should be a last turn gambit. Exapulater is 12k it can be hit by midnight invader and its clones. Bushiroad cant erase what its made, but it can edit, ban and limit. This was a question of opinion, not a debate. I'm just saying excapulate looks like a stepin the right direction.

Yeah, no. You need to read this. Carefully.
You just made an extremely dumb claim, that this "is an opinion and not a debate", which is wrong in a dozen ways. Opinions should be based on facts, reason, and evidence, not random subjective whims. We're not talking about what toppings you like on your hotdog here. We're talking about something measurable, predictable, and scientific. So no this isn't an opinion, and it doesn't have to be a debate. But if you don't accept someone's rebuttal, then it is a debate. By the same token, there's nothing wrong with a debate and it should be encouraged.

Also it's spelled "Exculpate" which means to remove culpability.

So let me get into why you're dead wrong: Exculpate isn't anything like a cross-ride in any way shape or form. This doesn't prove your point, because your point was that cross-rides should be like him. You're comparing apples to oranges. His 12k doesn't ever get used on an opposing turn, just look at his effects: He has to remove everything from the soul then ride Blaster Blade (9k) at the end of any turn he attacks. You don't get a turn to be 12k and furthermore, he would count more as a Grade 4 than a Crossride since Crossrides are only units that get permanent power based on a unit(s) being in the soul. Making the comparison between two cards that have completely different functions in every way, and then stating "See, I win!" is completely ridiculous. Exculpate is more like a Grade 4. He has printed power above 11000, he has a condition where you can't call him ever, meaning it works like a Grade 4 until you ride one, and he has a condition where you can only ride him on a Grade 3. The only other Grade 4 was a temporary test card that is no longer usable, so it's clear they wanted to test the limitations of that type of card to see about putting it into the game for real.

Exculpate is also NOT balanced. In any way. Look at that fucking mess of a card. I get it. You're fresh from Yugioh and don't think there's a problem here. But in Vanguard, we don't do this bullshit. There's 9 goddamn lines on this card, more than any other, and each individual line has 66% text width. They had to shrink the text just to fit on NINE lines that takes up over half the card art. Then, because English is less optimal than Japanese, they had to shrink it even more just to keep it on 10 lines. Not even 9. TEN lines in English.



He has SIX skills, more than any other card in the game. What a fucking mess. FOUR of those six skills are negative conditionals and drawbacks. This is just sickening. So you can't run 4 of this guy in a deck, that would be suicide, and you can't use it as anything other than a Final Turn gambit, that would be suicide. What can you use it for? Counterblast 3: get Lohengrin's megablast. So okay, let's assume +5 here. That's a defensive gambit, which means it can only pay off indirectly once it's your opponent's turn to attack. You've essentially stopped their final turn, whatever that was going to be, and got yourself the easiest vanguard power to hit. So now whatever's in their hand, all they have to do is call it for 14k columns and they can still attack normally. Most decks probably can't come back from that even with the 14k. And then on your turn, you ride a card to minus again. So in total: -1 Exculpate, -1 Grade 3 new ride, CB:3, (which counts as +2 due to precedent), and extreme restrictions. So if you get +5 from rears, pay -2 in the form of rides (due to being a defensive gambit), then you've gotten +3 for CB:3. Except that's 1 more than CB:3 can handle, so he's riddled with two other conditionals (the only-ride on G3 and re-ride Blaster are the costs factored in as minuses, not the conditionals factored here) that stop you running more than 1-2 of it (can't call, therefore can't use extras for anything), and make you unable to attack without blaster blade in a game where Barcgal is banned. So you have to use Gancelot during early game (for riding) or Majesty Lord to get him in the soul.

Here's where Exculpate turns from looking like a horribly useless mess of a card into something way imbalanced: Using this in a Gancelot deck isn't really useful. You're now required to draw one of eight cards before Grade 2, which is usually fine (~85% chance), except it's going to leave your random Exculpate laying around. This is not the important part. What's important is noting that you can run Exculpate in the extremely consistent Majesty build with four Majesty Lords and two to three or so Gancelots alongside him. Getting Blaster Blade in the soul at this point is practically guaranteed and he's already serving the purpose of dealing nonsensical critical to the opponent. Majesty Lord doesn't use counterblast except the optional Blaster Blade's CB:2. So you have all that open counterblast to use when you explode on Exculpate. After you've been relentlessly adding so much pressure that your opponent has to -2 on your vanguard every turn, and your 12-crit require them to minus even heavier on your rear-guards after checks, then you ride Exculpate and just obliterate their field. Those costs don't sound so great anymore. It wouldn't even be that hard to re-ride your leftover Majesty the next turn.

This card is a complete fucking mess. It's extreme on both ends of the spectrum. Of course, when put into a really powerful deck like Majesty, it feels like it has no conditions, really. Even if you were to ignore Majesty making him imbalanced on the "overpowered" side, basically any other deck is going to make him imbalanced on the random, explodey, sack side. What you're proposing by advocating disgusting messes like Exculpate, is that Vanguard should have Raigeki. And that it's okay because it has a text box a mile long that can barely fit the text in it. That's inelegant at best, and childish at worst. Take the fact that the guy who created this card, the manga-ka Akira Ito, whose other work is with Yu-Gi-Oh. And this manga card (in fact almost all of his manga cards) are typically imbalanced either as underpowered, overpowered, or at least are horrible messes and travesties. The reason is because manga-ka are trying to give you an interesting story with a big twist. Their manga isn't supposed to be about a balanced card game and real life stakes. It's supposed to be some epic tale where things keep getting ramped up. And what seems fair to an artist drawing a manga is rarely going to coincide with people whose job it is to actually create cards—an entirely different medium altogether from manga. His job is not making elegant, playable, mathematically viable cards. And it shows. He did a wonderful job creating a climactic set piece that fits within the narrative. But it was PANTS ON HEAD retarded for Bushiroad to go print his fucking Vanguard Raigeki.

Crossrides have nothing to do with this in any form. You haven't suggested any meaningful comparison with Exculpate and the effect of gaining +2000 permapower when something is in the soul. We don't want this game to be like Yugioh, where every card is manga-like. If you meant you want crossrides to be the mess that is Exculpate, then no dice. Otherwise, you need to clarify your point. And the next post I see that has chance claims better back up those claims with numbers.

Alice‚ what do u think of a card with the following effect: [ACT] cb1‚ bind 1 card in the opponent's soul until the end of this turn. Would it solve the crossride problem?

No. It just further highlights what a problem the crossrides are by intruding more anti-crossride cards into decks. Not to mention your solution is just flaccid since it trades resources for temporarily staving off a rape. The solution lies with fixing the problematic cards themselves, not further changing every other deck to cater to broken cards.

Without considering what grade or power such a unit would have, that's a really specific ability that doesn't do anything against many decks; the ones that don't care what goes in their soul. Vanguard isn't a game about specific counters like that. You also can't reasonably expect to do this every turn unless your clan is Nova Grappler or Angel Feather and if you're a CB-heavy clan you can forget about it.

As Alice said, it's also just a temporary stopgap. Might be costed better if it was (CB:1 + retire this unit) to bind the card permanently or send it to the drop zone. Removing it for one turn is comparable to the units that do (CB:1 to give yourself 1 damage until end of turn): a weird and sub-optimal gimmick.

It's also kind of an unprecedented effect in that it's indirectly inviting you to touch your opponent's cards (possibly physically + dealing with a zone that is public knowledge but not "visible" at all times).

Alice wrote:

No. It just further highlights what a problem the crossrides are by intruding more anti-crossride cards into decks. Not to mention your solution is just flaccid since it trades resources for temporarily staving off a rape. The solution lies with fixing the problematic cards themselves, not further changing every other deck to cater to broken cards.

At least it gives you the possibility to react to cross ride. They won´t be "fixed". Bushiroad´s reaction to crossrides was introducing limit break, breakrides and even more crossrides. This card is just a suggestion. Removing cards from soul would be too powerful and screw pale moon up. Crossrides wouldn´t be fixed. Conditions for this effect are still flexible. Some clans could soulblast 2 instead.

BTW: Sorry for my english, I´m no Americano, haha :)

They would make a better impact on the game making erratas or limits on cards than just ramping the power up constantly.

It just feels like Konami with them; don't playtest just release it and consider fixing it later.

Stronger cards are a reason to buy booster. If they just release different card, nobody will buy. There would be no "WOW-I need this".

Yeah, it sells cards in the short term. But in the long term it ends the game because people get tired of their old cards being constantly invalidated.

They should try to design more incomparable cards and effects, while still making basic clones, instead of just slapping on bigger and bigger numbers with lower or easier costs. MtG might not be the greatest game, but they do what they can to keep power and complexitycreep at bay with more than just formats.

At first CFV was doing great with that idea. Clans were different, yet one or two weren't totally unbeatable. You had options and great stuff you can do with flavor in between. Then Set 5 comes out and the meta, even after LBs came in, stayed the same; Dragonic Overlord, The End, MLB, and decks to try and stop them (which was like two).

Saraqael wrote:

Stronger cards are a reason to buy booster. If they just release different card, nobody will buy. There would be no "WOW-I need this".

Set 5 was released with Ji Endo/MLB. A Bonaza of cash was made.

Set 6,7,8 were released and they, as far as I know, pretty much bombed. Why? Because there was no reason to buy them for competition since THE ONLY COMPETITION existed in Set 5.

Edalborez wrote:

Without considering what grade or power such a unit would have, that's a really specific ability that doesn't do anything against many decks; the ones that don't care what goes in their soul. Vanguard isn't a game about specific counters like that. You also can't reasonably expect to do this every turn unless your clan is Nova Grappler or Angel Feather and if you're a CB-heavy clan you can forget about it.

As Alice said, it's also just a temporary stopgap. Might be costed better if it was (CB:1 + retire this unit) to bind the card permanently or send it to the drop zone. Removing it for one turn is comparable to the units that do (CB:1 to give yourself 1 damage until end of turn): a weird and sub-optimal gimmick.

It's also kind of an unprecedented effect in that it's indirectly inviting you to
touch your opponent's cards (possibly physically + dealing with a zone that is public knowledge but not "visible" at all times).

1. well, u don´t have to stick to these conditions, just some. It´s the same like these "weird" cards (CB:1 to give yourself 1 damage until end of turn) u mentioned. U don´t have to play them, they are quite specific and still people use them. I don´t force people to play this card, considering that such card would be released. It´s just to solve this problem in a different way. It´s not about removing crossrides, it´s about having a chance without removing them. They only thing bushiroad could do it to shut down this game and create a new one, like in duel masters.
2. even if it is temporary, it does its job, even if it´s just for one turn.
3. eh, well, i dunno, i don´t understand and so on :)

3XXXDDD wrote:

Saraqael wrote:

Stronger cards are a reason to buy booster. If they just release different card, nobody will buy. There would be no "WOW-I need this".

Set 5 was released with Ji Endo/MLB. A Bonaza of cash was made.

Set 6,7,8 were released and they, as far as I know, pretty much bombed. Why? Because there was no reason to buy them for competition since THE ONLY COMPETITION existed in Set 5.

not everybody likes to play kagero :)
At this point for most non-kagero-players there were 2 possibilities. 1. They start to cry. 2. They move on and accept that kagero is the most powerful.
Nobody likes to play great nature, still this set bombed, quite unexpected :S

Quote :

not everybody likes to play kagero :)
At this point for most non-kagero-players there were 2 possibilities. 1. They start to cry. 2. They move on and accept that kagero is the most powerful.
Nobody likes to play great nature, still this set bombed, quite unexpected :S

So according to you if I wanted to play competitively with something not using a CR, I should just quit? Great business plan for Bushiroad to follow for sure.

Klaus wrote:

Quote :

not everybody likes to play kagero :)
At this point for most non-kagero-players there were 2 possibilities. 1. They start to cry. 2. They move on and accept that kagero is the most powerful.
Nobody likes to play great nature, still this set bombed, quite unexpected :S

So according to you if I wanted to play competitively with something not using a CR, I should just quit? Great business plan for Bushiroad to follow for sure.

no, no, just wait for bushiroad releasing crossrides for every clan. :)
Limit Breaks were meant to counter cross rides. Still everybody complains about crossrides.

LBs don't counter them though. Your VG hitting 3 stages is cool, but my RG attacks in most clans will never go over 2, and some clans their gimmick won't even register (NG standspam, PG extra attacks).

Also, every clan getting a CR just means you can ONLY play the CRs. A terrible dull format for sure. And hell, if it wasn't for restrictions in Japan on Dragonic Overlord, The End and such, people wouldn't bother using the new ones because they're pretty underpowered compared to Dragonic Overlord, The End. Especially ones like Illuminal Dragon that focus on extra attacks, aka the strategy that's stopped by 13k.

godess of the sun Amaterasu got a 13k vanilla. U will never hit with her. Every enemy know, if you hit, u can win, if u draw a critical. So, nobody will ever let ur atk through.

I never said, that they counter crossrides (well, actually I did >.<) they were supposed to counter them. It´s true that the new crossrides got quite weak effects. Such (bind 1 soul-card)-card would make them start thinking if it´s even worth playing crossrides, being in fear, that then this card pops up, they are pretty much lest with some +3000 vanguard without any good effect.

You also have to realize decks focusing on the CR don't bother to focus on the clan's gimmick. Just look at Aqua Force, with Glory Maelstrom you can pretty much ignore their gimmick since Glory doesn't care about it. Some of the newer ones do (Illuminal standing, Goddess getting cards), but what's the stronger effect? Attacking a second time while retaining Twin Drive or fetching a card? In a competitive environment, I'm pretty much forced to take Dragonic Overlord, The End since anything else is lacking. Luckily if I was playing Japan I could try something else, but even then it's still a CR heavy environment and stifles options.

You fail to understand a game isn't good because it's got flashy tricks and a way to feel powerful, but one that allows options at higher levels of play and doesn't make your investment worthless with each new card.

flashy cards sell better. No lie :S

@Saraqael

your on a crossride hating forum, resistance is futile!

Saraqael wrote:

flashy cards sell better. No lie :S

They sell, and it's not a good argument for keeping them. It's a short term gain that kills the game faster.

Would you suddenly want you CFV collection to lose all it's worth because they crashed from powercreep? Hell, unless you're playing Dragonic Overlord, The End your collection is still pretty worthless.

Saraqael wrote:

Klaus wrote:

Quote :

not everybody likes to play kagero :)
At this point for most non-kagero-players there were 2 possibilities. 1. They start to cry. 2. They move on and accept that kagero is the most powerful.
Nobody likes to play great nature, still this set bombed, quite unexpected :S

So according to you if I wanted to play competitively with something not using a CR, I should just quit? Great business plan for Bushiroad to follow for sure.

no, no, just wait for bushiroad releasing crossrides for every clan. :)
Limit Breaks were meant to counter cross rides. Still everybody complains about crossrides.

Yes because the solution to blatant power creep is more blatant power creep.

edit: I just realized you probably wouldn't understand my sarcasm so here is what I meant to say: This is like a general telling the people of a country "we can prevent the death of our soldiers if we just use more soldiers for this mission".