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 So let's talk about crossrides!

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PureCray

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PostSubject: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 15:18

I, myself love that this game is finally becoming interesting. It was getting really boring for a while. then twin blades is out and it's finally cool. i can never go back to non-crossrides now. Any of you feel the same? It's really a load off my mind to just slap down my DOTE deck and win.

Also i run a blog here that just got started up. I was going to post on Pojo first but nah.
http://churchofcrossrides.blogspot.com/

If you can't tell, I'm a huge fanboy :D


Last edited by PureCray on 2012-10-27, 17:28; edited 1 time in total
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TheAngryBeard

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 17:07

I dunno about you, but doesn't this sort of severely restrict anyone who wants to play any of the other clans that aren't getting a crossride anytime soon? They're an interesting mechanic, and it's understandable that they want to make a bunch more... but at the cost of the viability of every other excluded deck? Not sure if it's worth it.
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PureCray

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 17:28

Games are most competitive when you weed out all the riff-raff and get it down to just a few decks. think about it, if everyon uses say DOTE, then all games come down to only the skills of the players involved. Plus it gets rid of players who aren't serious enough to pony up the money for the best decks. Other clans are for casual play
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TheAngryBeard

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 17:41

Ah I see, so people aren't allowed to have fun if it's not YOUR definition of fun. That's cool. Gotta wonder though, why bother having a card game if there's only going to be a couple of viable decks? If that was the point of these games, it'd save them a lot of effort if they just printed two amazing decks and that was all anybody could buy.
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PureCray

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 17:44

Well except that means they don't make as much money on casual players. I admit I buy casual decks. sporting a murakumo and tachikaze one now in fact. but I wouldn't ever take anything to a tourney that's not DOTE. Unless something more broken comes outwhich hasn't happened yet. and MY definition of fun? What exactly is fun for you? Losing? You have to play crossrides to win and nothing is gonna change that since Bushiroad almighty is the one releasing them. Crossrides are a welcome addition to the game. without them, cards barely do anything neat and skills all take a back seat to boringly swinging every turn.
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TheAngryBeard

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 17:57

If you only know how to have fun while winning, then I've really got nothing else to say.
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PureCray

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 18:21

If you want to be a casual, fine. But leave the game to people who actually know how to play.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 18:25

I sense trolling and sarcasm.

Darling, some of us aren't bothered by the presence of crossrides in the game and are still capable of frowning on this level of blatant dickery. If you don't want to seriously bring anything to the table... don't?

I get the impression you're being sarcastic to set up a strawman position for everyone who sees a positive side to the mechanic at all. And if you aren't, you are literally pathetic.

Oh and for the record, DOTE is a broken piece of ass whether you like the concept of crossrides as a mechanic or not, should have had at least 1k less power as a condition, and is one of Bushi's bigger bungles.
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PureCray

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 19:23

Of course it's broken. All crossrides are. That's the whole point. To raise the level of competitive play up and make you stay on your toes. Without a broken tier 0 deck, there's no real competition since everything is just handholding.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 19:59

PureCray wrote:
Of course it's broken. All crossrides are. That's the whole point. To raise the level of competitive play up and make you stay on your toes. Without a broken tier 0 deck, there's no real competition since everything is just handholding.

...Why did I even bother replying?

Arrrrgh. Alright, my masochism compels me. This is mostly for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread:

I like crossrides as a blanket mechanic and think they're balanceable despite being extremely powerful and metagame shifting. That's my position. Tier 1 decks are always going to exist, and crossrides just happen to be Vanguard's version of them.

Tier zero, on the other hand, is a very different ballpark. There's a difference between a deck that wins about eighty percent of its games against anything but similar decks, and a deck that wins ninety percent of its games against anything. A metagame with somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-5 types of "big" decks and several "rogue" decks can probably be considered pretty healthy by general TCG standards, and means decent variety for competitive players. A metagame where one deck makes up about fifty percent of the game is not. The End is a fifty-percenter. It's just too much of a perfect storm- the crossride mechanic should be limited to decks that can't plus very easily and have very rudimentary tools for opponent-minusing IMO, and Kagero falls pretty firmly into the latter category. There is a reason I like Great Daiyuusha so much.

And you, sir, are obnoxious to me because- simply put- you are a troll. You do absolutely no good for anyone here. Anyone who doesn't see a problem with crossrides will be judged by keeping company with you. Everyone who does see them as a cancer is going to be bugged by you (unless they see the joke). And you get the benefit of wasting everyone's time- well, mine at any rate.

Please though, do continue to spout putrid refuse and try to undermine the credibility of people who take opposing viewpoints but use logic to back them up. It brings me joy and happiness, and gives fuel to the sadomasochistic demons who govern my very existence and compel me to take part in a debate in which there is literally no way to win. After all, it's impossible to score a checkmate if your opponent keeps hopping their pawn to the back of the board and shouting "KING ME".
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PureCray

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 20:08

ScarletWeather wrote:
I like crossrides as a blanket mechanic and think they're balanceable despite being extremely powerful and metagame shifting. That's my position. Tier 1 decks are always going to exist, and crossrides just happen to be Vanguard's version of them.
Jesus do you always type unnecessarily long replies? Do you also always insult people constantly? Crossrides are the best this game has to offer hands down. Enjoy trying to get magic numbers against me when I'm at 13k. Not recognizing this makes you bad. I was told this was a forum of the best players in the game. Maybe you're just one person but I am getting the distinct feeling you represent a large pool of people. How can you even look at a static 11k and almost-always 13k and say "oh gee, that's just like everything else!"?

Play crossrides because they're broken not because they're "fair". why would you even want a balanced game. it's not like it can stay balanced forever.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 20:17

So you agree they're broken but you want to embrace a shitty format? Are you on drugs?
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 20:23

PureCray wrote:

Jesus do you always type unnecessarily long replies? Do you also always insult people constantly? Crossrides are the best this game has to offer hands down. Enjoy trying to get magic numbers against me when I'm at 13k. Not recognizing this makes you bad. I was told this was a forum of the best players in the game. Maybe you're just one person but I am getting the distinct feeling you represent a large pool of people. How can you even look at a static 11k and almost-always 13k and say "oh gee, that's just like everything else!"?

I'm verbose, yes. Abrasive? Only when I think I'm being fucked with.

"Always like anything else"? Hardly. As stated, Crossrides are some of not only the strongest decks, but the most broken decks in the game- The End and Majesty have already proven to be Bushi bungles, and there's already proxying going on that suggests Platinum Ezel might end up part of a triumvirate with them for "most broken decks" (though the jury's still out on whether Platinum is just regular-crossride good or "FUUUUUUUUUUU-" depending on who I talk to).

However, I'm talking about this from a design perspective, and I think crossrides are actually extremely powerful, an interesting mechanic, and one that should be applied very carefully. Shadow Paladin can support a crossride because theirs is kind of lame and they have a severely truncated cardpool (though one with a lot of nice units). Kagero should not. Dimensional Police and likely Nova Grappler can. What it really comes down to is

a) how powerful is the clan without one

and b) How much does the deck support the crossride winning image, as opposed to the crossride supporting the rest of the deck's?

I very much agree that crossrides are the best cards in the game, don't get me wrong. But I don't think an overdose of "the best cards" is a good idea either. They're a pretty painful medicine and should be applied carefully. BT09 is kind of showing the opposite strategy of just throwing them to everyone like candy, which I'm still on the fence about- I like the new Azure crossride, I might like the new Amaterasu one depending on its skill though I think it's going to be misguided, and I feel guilty for liking Platinum Ezel because I don't think it's going to be good for the game overall (it's an Ezel dammit! Instant love ;; ). I don't, however, particularly like the idea of any one crossride deck getting so dominant that it destroys every other deck in the meta- or crossrides being the only viable strategy. You need rogue decks to make a good meta. You need the possibility of building decks that hit so hard that crossride numbers aren't the only viable solution. Sephirot and Zeal were steps in that direction, but Bushi should be printing more cards in that vein if they really want to do this whole crossride thing as widely as they seem like they are.



Quote :
Play crossrides because they're broken not because they're "fair". why would you even want a balanced game. it's not like it can stay balanced forever.

That's just it- I don't want a perfectly balanced game. Or rather, I don't think we could have ever had a perfectly balanced game indefinitely.

What I want is this- even given that Vanguard is going to break somewhere at some point- because every TCG that has ever existed will eventually break- I want it to break in such a way that there's always variation and fun to be had at every level. Crossrides being top tier? Yeah, sure, cool. One deck being so top tier that I can't even sneak in another deck that uses the same central mechanic? Ew, no. Gold Paladins being twenty percent of a metagame isn't cause to be concerned about imo. The End being fifty percent is.

I'm okay with 13k being so good that it will never leave the competitive realm- but not with it being the same 13k, or there being only one right way to run the 13k, or no alternative options existing that aren't 13k. Give me significant choices, and I'll tolerate just about anything though.
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veldrien

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 21:01

You guys are getting blatantly trolled... I can't even believe you are talking to this guy lol.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 21:22

veldrien wrote:
You guys are getting blatantly trolled... I can't even believe you are talking to this guy lol.

I kind of noted as much twice, though my walls o' text probably obscured it. I'm just a masochist like this, and chaos draws me near. -shrug-
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AstoXx

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 21:53

I'm more of the stance that if Bushiroad are playing around with Grade 4's like Epitome of Knowledge, bite the bullet and JUSTIFY Crossrides by making THEM the Grade 4's. That seems to make sense to me. But yeah, cross-rides aren't bad, in and of themselves. It's possible to beat them, I've done it a few times. The issues are, at least in my view:
1) Beating them requires either a constant perfect play on your part or a massive screw-up on theirs. That includes them missing rides or getting absolutely no triggers, etc. So, you know... all luck-based.
2) The fact that they'll have a corrosive impact on the metagame, making people either play crossrides or counter-crossride decks. If you aren't playing it, you're playing to solely beat it. And that's bad. Every TCG will break eventually, yes, but how much of the current card pool is still playable after that point is what defines whether or not it's something we can live with.
3) That Bushiroad are going to have to now create a constant stream of crossrides to be able to cope, exponentially rocketing up the power creep faster than usual.

Also, I'm really, REALLY pissed that from what I can find, GP's seem to be getting 3 crossrides from BT09. Because Bushi love them some GP's, it seems. They have more than enough support and have already surpassed other clans that have been around since the game's inception in card pool. That does not seem right, to me.

This new "Leader" skill as well, may as well be non-existant. Who would run crossrides in a hybrid? And all you need is ONE other unit that's the same clan? Well, that'll be a booster then. As soon as you have a field of 3 boosters ready, "Leader" disappears and you don't even need a Counterblast to do it, so it's better than "Restraint". Actually, giving them Restraint with the condition that they have to remove their lesser self as the cost would perhaps be a balancing factor, but will most likely lessen their utility way too much.

On a side-note, my fantasy crossride formula looks something like
Grade 4
11k base power, +1k if you have the crossridden unit in soul, -2k if you don't
Can't attack if you have any non-clan or no clan
And then whatever skill defines the card itself
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-27, 22:54

The problem with Grade 4 is that the game is pretty much entirely built around having a ratio of three Grades. Epitome of Knowledge was pretty much a failed experiment for a reason- 13k base on a fourth Grade is not enough reason to try to run what will amount to the potential for a completely dead card in every game.

GPs are getting two, the Garmore-esque one appears to be a G1 Black Horse unit (it made an appearance in tonight's episode, was featured in KeroKero near Spectral Duke, has the same chain motif)

I think people are exaggerating exactly how much of the current cardpool that crossride completely invalidates, tbh. The hardest-hit clan is Aqua Force, which didn't even exist until after the mechanic (why Bushi didn't give them a 13k stormrider to begin with boggles the mind). A lot of the cards that aren't viable in a meta with crossride either weren't particularly viable before, or else had other issues holding them back- competitive play is diverse in the english meta but it's in its baby state, and Japan's tournaments for their pre-crossride meta pretty clearly favored only a few clans in terms of results (I can't remember how many winning decks were either Tsuku or Goku/Overlord).

I do agree that crossrides in the volume they exist in now and the clans that Bushi has given them are going to be corrosive, and that's not entirely a good thing- and even that the mechanic could have been executed better from its inception (my favorite potential fix is just makiing it a static gain of 1k instead of 2k- 12k is pretty manageable by comparison). I've just kind of made up my mind to tolerate them because they're here, we have them, and I don't entirely see the direction they push the meta in as being bad in and of itself even if it is technically power creep. That's the mechanic, mind. Some of the specific units were just... over the lines.
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 02:49

@AstoXx
Pretty much this.
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meeb

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 16:48

ScarletWeather wrote:
The problem with Grade 4 is that the game is pretty much entirely built around having a ratio of three Grades.

If I wanted to be an ass, couldn't I use the same logic you used when you tried to tell Alice that the game wasn't built around a maximum G3 power of static 11k?

"Games change, deal with it."
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 21:11

meeb wrote:
ScarletWeather wrote:
The problem with Grade 4 is that the game is pretty much entirely built around having a ratio of three Grades.

If I wanted to be an ass, couldn't I use the same logic you used when you tried to tell Alice that the game wasn't built around a maximum G3 power of static 11k?

"Games change, deal with it."

You misunderstand. Absolutely, Grade 4 would be a valid territory for the game to explore- but my problem with them is that Grade 4 actually wouldn't change the game because there is literally no incentive to run them. They just aren't competitively viable, decks will run more consistently without them, and essentially they'd just be a bad investment as a player.

Crossrides, at the very least, do not reward your monetary investment in a pack by giving you boss cards that suck ass.

I have no problem with Grade 4 changing a "core rule", I have a problem with Grade 4 being lame cards.
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wan0009

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 21:14

My dear, dear friends.

Have you played a crossride deck before? I have. Against real Japanese players.
I can tell you now that it cannot possibly give this much threat, and the reason being:

1) How many crossrides are you going to run in a deck? you only have about 7-8 G3 slots, so pretty much your G3 line up will be your unit (e.g PBD) and its crossride (PBO), right? I can tell you now the number of time that they miss-crossride is phenomenon.

2) DOTE and PBO are meaningless without another copy of itself in hand, so considering that they have more than one in hand, they will always have less to block with.

3) People say DOTE is broken, but don't forget it discards one copy of itself to activate its effect. technically, you've only plus 3, just like Dragonic Overlord with his CB, even tho you drive check twice, you have gained the same amount of advantage, triggers aside. DOTE have also shown to have a high chance to actually check into DO or DOTEs, as seen in the anime with Kai, which is the reason why he lost in the end.

4) People say crossride is so easy to block with. I have experience that proves otherwise. you are not going to have THAT many 5k shields in hand to block with, so even if you have a crossride, your opponent keep hitting for more than 13k and you are still forced to waste your 10ks anyway, and end up being just another normal game. What's worse, we are talking about decks that have G3s that is meaningless in hand as soon as you run out of CB, how are you going to block with a G3?

5) So far, every crossride comes from VERY CB heavy decks, that requires HIGH CB themselves. If you try to conserve your CB for crossride you may very well lose before you can manage, I have seen this many times, when you are too focused on one thing you lose sight of everything else and just crumble.

So in the end, what is the problem of crossrides again?
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 21:29

...Yay, I get to take a break from playing this site's devil's advocate and just join the herd for a few minutes. Having my own opinions was starting to get stifling.

Yes, I have played against crossride decks. Actually I played against some of the first available crossride decks pretty extensively. I've even just for kicks and giggles tested the damn things for myself.

God in fucking heaven, no. Majesty/DOTE are...

...Let me clarify something. "Broken" in the context of Vanguard doesn't mean unbeatable, it just means pretty unfairly powerful compared to other decks- a clear "cut above" as it were. You're quite right in that crossride decks aren't unbeatable, have inherent flaws and weaknesses (notably that Crossride decks are a bit slower on the uptake), and that DOTE and PBO's non-cross skills require another copy of themselves in hand.

DOTE is still a bad idea.

It's 13k. In a defensive clan that already has several beatdown options. Its ride-over piece is a base 11k unit that you already have good reason to run. You don't actually have to hit with the Persona Blast to exhibit pressure. You have Conroe as your lead-out starter, i.e. the best starter currently legal for official play. You can actually run a very high number of 5k shields with little fear in crossride decks- I actually favor higher-draw builds for DOTE and Majesty because they're capable of exhibiting heavy pressure without criticals, and extra draws means spreading defense across a higher number of cards (which draws out the game and makes you harder to take down when you actually crossride). You can snipe rear guards to decimate any formation that might give you trouble. Your deck is still frakking Overlord even if you don't successfully crossride.

Essentially, DOTE just took one of the most resource-rich clans in the game and turned it into one of the two strongest... permanently, pretty much. Majesty Lord is...

...Yeah screw Majesty Lord I have never invested nearly as much time in learning how that deck operates because I actually detest Majesty Lord, I'll let someone who's had more time behind the wheel counter you on that point.

tl;dr, You can build Crossride decks to maximize defense, and DOTE is about the threat of it possibly Persona Blasting being almost as much of a painful presence in the game as getting hit with the persona blast itself. DOTE is not a crossride I think we should have had, plain and simple. In fact, I'd argue that the Crossride mechanic should have started at Great Daiyuusha and been limited to Nova Grappler/Dimensional Police/ some of the clans that just aren't as advantage-happy- particularly ones that have lore excuses for their units being giant beyond the normal 'giant' standards.

Obviously, of course, it isn't. And I can live with that- I'm not the one in charge of designing or selling this game, and I'm not particularly upset that some clans actually have a clear advantage at this point because somebody was going to have one no matter what in the end. I just think it's a bit goofy to insist that there aren't problems with some of the existing crossrides, even if I think the mechanic and some of the existing units are salvageable.
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wan0009

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 21:49

If DOTE is overpowered, then what do you call the monstrosity such as Dragonic Kaiser Vermillion?

Besides, if I recall correctly, Alice's proposal for crossrides in her letter to Bushi proposed PBO to have a CB of 2, now unless she is mistaken there, I feel that if Bushi ever listens to her, then PBO will be the greatest threat of all, because he can keep forcing you to over guard and even waste your nulls.

You speak of MLB to be something disgusting, I can tell you now that I have not lost to a MLB deck, ever, the chances of them pulling the effect off is totally dependent on them drawing their Blaster Darks, which happens very rarely. By rushing them with a GRANBLUE deck, yes, a GRANBLUE deck has not lost to a MLB yet. They were forced to try and play the deck like a normal Royal Paladin, which failed epically because of the fact it was built for MLB.

Besides, DOTE is perfectly balanced, to stand up you need to HIT, most of the time it doesn't, and considering that you have another copy in hand, your opponent can game you easily next turn. I have seen that happen too many times to count.

This is what I don't like about this whole discussion, you are basing your entire argument on THEORY, try play the deck and then complain about it. After all, unless you can predict the future, how can you make claims and influence other people while basing it off pure assumption?
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wan0009

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 22:42

Btw, I see that you have allowed Barcgal as a starting Vanguard in the V-Mundi format, that's not unbalanced...how?

It has been proven again and again by various players worldwide that Barcgal was too overpowered and broken to use as a starting Vanguard, I feel that unless you take that out of the starting line-up I cannot bring myself to debate on this matter with you on equal footing, but rather on hypocrisy. Because if you speak of crossrides being a overpowered, then what about the infamous Barcgal combo? Will that not make everyone that plays your format an automatic Royal Paladin player? What is the difference of your format then, with that of the official Bushi format? When instead of Gold Paladins Royal Paladins dominate?

Please reconsider your decision, it is for the future of the game and for everyone to be able to enjoy it without any unbalanced units breaking the game. If this continues then I feel I cannot proudly call myself a member of the V-Mundi, and must place in an official complaint.
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Another Leather Lung

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 23:13

I'm not sure what to say.

"Are you on drugs?" -Alice, page 1.
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