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 So let's talk about crossrides!

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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-28, 23:32

wan0009 wrote:
.

You speak of MLB to be something disgusting, I can tell you now that I have not lost to a MLB deck, ever, the chances of them pulling the effect off is totally dependent on them drawing their Blaster Darks, which happens very rarely. By rushing them with a GRANBLUE deck, yes, a GRANBLUE deck has not lost to a MLB yet. They were forced to try and play the deck like a normal Royal Paladin, which failed epically because of the fact it was built for MLB.

I guess Starcall Trumpeter doesn't exist then, or second-turn Blaster ride + Wingal Brave into searching the Blaster you need.

I nearly took out an optimal-at-the-time MLB build with a theme ninja deck. I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean MLB is any less powerful.

Mind you, the reason that I hate Majesty Lord Blaster isn't that it's strong. It's that I freaking hate Majesty Lord Blaster. I just don't like the unit- it's really not my style, and neither is the deck.

wan0009 wrote:

This is what I don't like about this whole discussion, you are basing your entire argument on THEORY, try play the deck and then complain about it. After all, unless you can predict the future, how can you make claims and influence other people while basing it off pure assumption?

...As much as I like your attitude of "money where your mouth is"... I've actually played DOTE? I played DOTE for a while back in freakin' BT05-Japan-release-era?

Even if DOTE was perfectly balanced, I still feel like the card was a bad decision from the outset. Kagero didn't need a crossride- neither did Gold Paladin, really. The clans where the cards seem to be a best fit in are the ones that just don't have a lot in the way of super-advantage-gaining cards, or ability to toolbox new cards into play. It's also rather boring when the end boss of every clan, regardless of playstyle, skews towards 13k rather than not- the reason I love Sephirot and Zeal so much is that their skills are good examples of things Bushi can do that will make a clan attractive to competitive players without doing the same thing over and over.
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wan0009

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 00:10

Oh so you actually play Japanese format also, then that makes thing much easier.

I am not going to argue about your hatred for MLB, because if you are talking about just the card, I hate it too. I find the very idea of twist light and darkness together sickening, Shadow Paladin is all there needs to be as a Paladin clan.

But, there is no point worrying about MLB or DOTE then, if we follow your point about Sephirot and Zeal, if you follow the Japanese format then I am sure you have seen the new cards in set 9, and know that Metatron is a crossride slayer.

Also, I am slightly concerned about the fact that no one answered my question towards Barcgal yet.

P.S. To dear Another Leather Lung-san: Yes, I am on drugs, why else would I be here and debating about this in the first place? :D You are such a sweet and hilarious person :)
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 00:22

wan0009 wrote:
Oh so you actually play Japanese format also, then that makes thing much easier.

I am not going to argue about your hatred for MLB, because if you are talking about just the card, I hate it too. I find the very idea of twist light and darkness together sickening, Shadow Paladin is all there needs to be as a Paladin clan.

But, there is no point worrying about MLB or DOTE then, if we follow your point about Sephirot and Zeal, if you follow the Japanese format then I am sure you have seen the new cards in set 9, and know that Metatron is a crossride slayer.

Also, I am slightly concerned about the fact that no one answered my question towards Barcgal yet.

P.S. To dearAnother Leather Lung-san: Yes, I am on drugs, why else would I be here and debating about this in the first place? :D You are such a sweet and hilarious person :)

Metatron and other units can perform decently against crossrides, yes. But not every crossride affords you the opportunity to set up decent plays against it. DOTE is one such deck- control + 13k = potential shutdown of all possible counters imminent. I've just come off playing pick-up games with Thunder Break/Vasuki Narukami against some kid who built his first DOTE deck. The guy was using Majin Soldat, Volcano Scale Dragon, and starting with Doombringer Gryphon.

I struggled every. Single. Game. And this is, mind, with a deck I built specifically to deal a little easier with crossrides than not (Thunderstorm Dragoon and Red River at max, Riki included, using 2-off Dangari to have extra 11k around... etc.) Again, this is with a new player who clearly had not mastered the game OR deck yet.

...I'm going to tacitly ignore the fact that I'm probably the biggest Timmy on this forum and you actually just slipped into semi role-playing land ahead of me.

As for why everyone's ignoring the Barcgal thing, it's because robo-mutt isn't really that big a deal at this point and it's off-topic anyway. Having played BT06-08 stuff for a while now, Barkgal is...

..,Still the best starter in the game, but even that's not enough to straight-up break Royals.

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wan0009

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 00:35

Um...start with Doombringer Gryphon? You mean he ran Doombringer right? Cause Doombringer works as a rear-guard and it doesn't work if you use it as a starting Vanguard.

On a more side note, which is what I am interested in discussing, what was the game like? When you played DOTE and when you played this said kid? What did you run and what did he run?
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wan0009

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 00:39

That and there is no problem with PBO, I persume? Because the argument seems to be really not relating to him at all :)
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veldrien

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 00:47

Lol... looks like you got cheated ... you can't move doom bringer when you ride it and it only activates on rearguard.
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Epideme

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 00:53

PBO has 13k

His skill is fine. 13k just fucks up the majority of decks. Even if some clans CAN play around it, clans like Granblue or Megacolony don't have the power to. And even then you need specific cards to hit good numbers. But this shit has been said multiple times from multiple sources.

And I think Scarlet was saying that the kid didn't have a Conroe, showing that his skill level or experience with the game was probably pretty low.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 00:54

wan0009 wrote:
Um...start with Doombringer Gryphon? You mean he ran Doombringer right? Cause Doombringer works as a rear-guard and it doesn't work if you use it as a starting Vanguard.

On a more side note, which is what I am interested in discussing, what was the game like? When you played DOTE and when you played this said kid? What did you run and what did he run?

You read my post entirely correctly. This guy was starting the game. With. Doombringer. He only had the one in the deck as far as I know and he seemed like a new player.

What did the kid and I run? I ran...

VasukiBreak - Narukami fun deck focused on re-riding G3s to trigger the skill of Vasuki, a promo G3 that gets +10k every time you ride. You can make pretty crazy big moments with it. I run it with maxed Red River Dragoon, Thunderstorm Dragoon, and Deathscythe- my Grade 3 was 3x Vasuki, 3x Thunder Break, 2x Dangari.

He ran DOTE with Volcano Scale Dragon, Majin Soldat... and otherwise pretty normal-ish stuff for the deck. Kimnara, Bahr, Barri; Berserk Dragon and Bellicosity, Burning Horn... pretty much what I've come to expect.

The games went pretty poorly mostly because even though I had no problem getting Red Rivers, he retired my boosts too quickly for me to actually use them. I still won three out of four games, but I struggled way harder than I should against a player who did not know that Dragonic Overlord's counter blast must be activated before you begin attacking for the turn. It didn't help that during game four he bet on double trigger against a two-pass guard, got a heal and draw, and then persona blasted.

As for when I played DOTE... I played it using Berserk, Bellicosity Dragon, and Burning Horn iirc. And I used 6 draw/6 crit. I don't really remember specific games because I did a lot of mirror matching when I was using it, and I don't like DOTE enough to go back and play it myself.

PBO I dislike too, but it's...

...kinda weaksauce, as crossrides go? Skill is next to worthless, so really the only reason it's viable is that it's 13k and you can use Masquerade with it. It could top if we didn't have better crossrides, but virtually every other crossride has some aspect that makes it better so... yeah?

EDIT @Vedrien: Actually, I didn't get cheated- if anything he did. He didn't move Doombringer out. He just started the game with it because...

...I'm not even sure why. If it weren't for the fact that he didn't seem to know the timing on Dragonic Overlord's blast or that it doesn't stand if it hits a Vanguard, I would actually have leaned toward him just being a troll player using sub-par cards for funsies.
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zawarudo

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 04:09

ScarletWeather wrote:
wan0009 wrote:
Um...start with Doombringer Gryphon? You mean he ran Doombringer right? Cause Doombringer works as a rear-guard and it doesn't work if you use it as a starting Vanguard.

On a more side note, which is what I am interested in discussing, what was the game like? When you played DOTE and when you played this said kid? What did you run and what did he run?

You read my post entirely correctly. This guy was starting the game. With. Doombringer. He only had the one in the deck as far as I know and he seemed like a new player.

What did the kid and I run? I ran...

VasukiBreak - Narukami fun deck focused on re-riding G3s to trigger the skill of Vasuki, a promo G3 that gets +10k every time you ride. You can make pretty crazy big moments with it. I run it with maxed Red River Dragoon, Thunderstorm Dragoon, and Deathscythe- my Grade 3 was 3x Vasuki, 3x Thunder Break, 2x Dangari.

He ran DOTE with Volcano Scale Dragon, Majin Soldat... and otherwise pretty normal-ish stuff for the deck. Kimnara, Bahr, Barri; Berserk Dragon and Bellicosity, Burning Horn... pretty much what I've come to expect.

The games went pretty poorly mostly because even though I had no problem getting Red Rivers, he retired my boosts too quickly for me to actually use them. I still won three out of four games, but I struggled way harder than I should against a player who did not know that Dragonic Overlord's counter blast must be activated before you begin attacking for the turn. It didn't help that during game four he bet on double trigger against a two-pass guard, got a heal and draw, and then persona blasted.

As for when I played DOTE... I played it using Berserk, Bellicosity Dragon, and Burning Horn iirc. And I used 6 draw/6 crit. I don't really remember specific games because I did a lot of mirror matching when I was using it, and I don't like DOTE enough to go back and play it myself.

PBO I dislike too, but it's...

...kinda weaksauce, as crossrides go? Skill is next to worthless, so really the only reason it's viable is that it's 13k and you can use Masquerade with it. It could top if we didn't have better crossrides, but virtually every other crossride has some aspect that makes it better so... yeah?

EDIT @Vedrien: Actually, I didn't get cheated- if anything he did. He didn't move Doombringer out. He just started the game with it because...

...I'm not even sure why. If it weren't for the fact that he didn't seem to know the timing on Dragonic Overlord's blast or that it doesn't stand if it hits a Vanguard, I would actually have leaned toward him just being a troll player using sub-par cards for funsies.

What did I just read???
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 08:58

wan0009 wrote:

This is what I don't like about this whole discussion, you are basing your entire argument on THEORY, try play the deck and then complain about it. After all, unless you can predict the future, how can you make claims and influence other people while basing it off pure assumption?

Because Theory isn't simply the the accumulation of evidence gathered by the scientific method of a controlled and repeated experiment (ie playtesting) only to further prove your hypothesis? Am I right or am I right? 8D

Problem here is when your saying "I don't like your argument because you are basing it on theory and not practice" is actually you saying "GIVE ME FALLACIOUS ANALOGIES". A stance like that will turn an argument into "MLB isn't a big deal, I beat him all the time" or "MLB is totally a big deal, he just has everything" and will end up with an argument completely devoid of evidenced facts and full of nothing more than stories.

wan0009 wrote:
Btw, I see that you have allowed Barcgal as a starting Vanguard in the V-Mundi format, that's not unbalanced...how?

It has been proven again and again by various players worldwide that Barcgal was too overpowered and broken to use as a starting Vanguard, I feel that unless you take that out of the starting line-up I cannot bring myself to debate on this matter with you on equal footing, but rather on hypocrisy. Because if you speak of crossrides being a overpowered, then what about the infamous Barcgal combo? Will that not make everyone that plays your format an automatic Royal Paladin player? What is the difference of your format then, with that of the official Bushi format? When instead of Gold Paladins Royal Paladins dominate?

Please reconsider your decision, it is for the future of the game and for everyone to be able to enjoy it without any unbalanced units breaking the game. If this continues then I feel I cannot proudly call myself a member of the V-Mundi, and must place in an official complaint.

Because back then, Barcgal was like the only starter worth a damn other than Conroe. Since then clans have got plenty of much better starters such as Greedy Hand instead of Vermillion for Dark Irregulars or Girl who crossed the gap instead of Underworld Manager for Pale Moon. As for the Soul Saver shenanigans, I'd rather find that she has become quite hindered since the introduction of the +5000K Limit Breakers simply outdoing most of the work she puts in. Also what Scarlet said it's quite irrelevant to the topic at hand.

PureCray wrote:
Games are most competitive when you weed out all the riff-raff and get it down to just a few decks. think about it, if everyon uses say DOTE, then all games come down to only the skills of the players involved. Plus it gets rid of players who aren't serious enough to pony up the money for the best decks. Other clans are for casual play

If you want everybody on equal footing, why not just play Chess or some other similar abstract game?


Last edited by 3XXXDDD on 2012-10-29, 09:02; edited 1 time in total
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 09:20

zawarudo wrote:
What did I just read???

A Scarlet Weather post. Welcome to V-Mundi :|
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AzraelZero

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 09:54

Ultimately, Bushiroad just prints what they believe will sell well.
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meeb

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 10:05

wan0009 wrote:
My dear, dear friends.

Have you played a crossride deck before? I have. Against real Japanese players.
I can tell you now that it cannot possibly give this much threat, and the reason being:

1) How many crossrides are you going to run in a deck? you only have about 7-8 G3 slots, so pretty much your G3 line up will be your unit (e.g PBD) and its crossride (PBO), right? I can tell you now the number of time that they miss-crossride is phenomenon.

Math disagrees with you. They should get the crossride off quite frequently.
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ThtAzndomination

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 12:53

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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 13:06

ThtAzndomination wrote:
I shall say this
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3rf3cn/

Silent Tom's best column is 16000 outside of some awkward mix deck. Cross-Rides don't even blink an eye to Silent Tom.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 13:24

3XXXDDD wrote:
ThtAzndomination wrote:
I shall say this
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3rf3cn/

Silent Tom's best column is 16000 outside of some awkward mix deck. Cross-Rides don't even blink an eye to Silent Tom.

I think the relevant point was the "man the fuck up" part, not the implication that Silent Tom is somehow strong against Crossrides.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 13:41

ScarletWeather wrote:
3XXXDDD wrote:
ThtAzndomination wrote:
I shall say this
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3rf3cn/

Silent Tom's best column is 16000 outside of some awkward mix deck. Cross-Rides don't even blink an eye to Silent Tom.

I think the relevant point was the "man the fuck up" part, not the implication that Silent Tom is somehow strong against Crossrides.

Welp, I don't think Tom will be saying "Man, the fuck up" when he is against one of them!
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ThtAzndomination

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 14:35

Well then you should "Man the fuck up" against crossrides. Just because they give advantage doesn't mean they are invincible. You need to be able to think on your feet against them and if you can't you just shouldn't play this game. If you think about it, it takes about 4 turns to set up so you can grade 2 rush the shit out of them and they can't do anything about it... usually.
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3XXXDDD
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 14:45

ThtAzndomination wrote:
Well then you should "Man the fuck up" against crossrides. Just because they give advantage doesn't mean they are invincible. You need to be able to think on your feet against them and if you can't you just shouldn't play this game. If you think about it, it takes about 4 turns to set up so you can grade 2 rush the shit out of them and they can't do anything about it... usually.

No one has ever stated they were invincible. Stop using that as an argument. What they do is essentially invalidate the majority of our previously established card library and basically force us into playing "X Crossride" or "Anti-Crossride" and as anyone can see with one quick glance, Vanguard's clans aren't defined in those generic terms.
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ScarletWeather

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 15:08

3XXXDDD wrote:
ThtAzndomination wrote:
Well then you should "Man the fuck up" against crossrides. Just because they give advantage doesn't mean they are invincible. You need to be able to think on your feet against them and if you can't you just shouldn't play this game. If you think about it, it takes about 4 turns to set up so you can grade 2 rush the shit out of them and they can't do anything about it... usually.

No one has ever stated they were invincible. Stop using that as an argument. What they do is essentially invalidate the majority of our previously established card library and basically force us into playing "X Crossride" or "Anti-Crossride" and as anyone can see with one quick glance, Vanguard's clans aren't defined in those generic terms.

I actually agree with this, in part- I think the key difference between me and the majority of the people on this forum is that I don't see the shift as being too drastic in terms of what 'can be' played, and what's made valid/invalid. A lot of cards actually became better choices in light of crossrides, including things like Toypugal (which now has added utility since it can boost Palamedes up to 22k- Majesty-smashing levels, or Blaster Blade up to 18k against Crossrides- or Akane to 17 against Maj- etc.) or Jet-Black Poet, Amon. I am kind of upset that the hardest-hit decks were the toolboxing decks like Granblue (where your ability to instantly shift formations is a lot less attractive when the only formations you can sustain hit like little girls against The End), but that's the kind of thing I'm willing to deal with since those decks had other things holding them back from being attractive competitively to begin with, and Crossrides serve as a deterrent to decks that 'tactically nuke' or win by doing nothing but steady 20s-everywhere every turn.

I refer to a previous hugeass wall of text where I laid out the fact that "broken" in Vanguard doesn't mean the same thing as "broken" in YGO- Crossride decks, even the worst of them, are actually surmountable and with sufficient tactics you can play a good game against them. That doesn't mean that the odds weren't stacked in their favor, however.
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ThtAzndomination

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 16:45

Well Basically you were making it sound like Crossrides were "invincible" and so silent tom would like to... repeat the above. I do agree that Crossrides are good. They just take a lot of setup
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Alice
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 18:12

ThtAzndomination wrote:
Well then you should "Man the fuck up" against crossrides. Just because they give advantage doesn't mean they are invincible. You need to be able to think on your feet against them and if you can't you just shouldn't play this game. If you think about it, it takes about 4 turns to set up so you can grade 2 rush the shit out of them and they can't do anything about it... usually.

We need to introduce 15k base Grade 3s that have skills just like Crossrides but with no soul requirement. If you don't like it, man the fuck up. It's not invincible, it can still be hit.
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meeb

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 18:38

ThtAzndomination wrote:
Well then you should "Man the fuck up" against crossrides. Just because they give advantage doesn't mean they are invincible. You need to be able to think on your feet against them and if you can't you just shouldn't play this game. If you think about it, it takes about 4 turns to set up so you can grade 2 rush the shit out of them and they can't do anything about it... usually.

"Man the fuck up" is just another way of saying "stop not liking what I like."

People are allowed to express disappointment when games change in ways they do not like.

Also, your G2 rush strategy. Can you tell me what the magical difference between Crossride decks and non-Crossride decks is that prevents the latter from being as badly hurt by G2 rush?

As far as I can tell, rushdown effects both kinds of decks equally. The only difference is once you hit 13k you can survive in late game longer.
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ThtAzndomination

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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 19:31

Exactly. Hitting the 13k allows you to survive longer. So basically you need to have a good early game to counter that your opponent will have a better late game. Strategies matter. I usually face crossride decks regularly and what I do differently against them than other decks? Nothing. I pull the same stuff that I usually do. If they don't want to waste a 10k guard on a 5k attack but don't want to waste a grade 1 or grade 2, well they are in a predicament. Its not easy to be them too because they have to waste resources that are more valuable for a lesser cause.
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PostSubject: Re: So let's talk about crossrides!   2012-10-29, 19:52

Cross-Ride decks wasting resources?

I'm sorry but no, just no. 13K = A Re-active +3 during your Opponent's turn in relative terms if you were to deck a 10 or 11 K Vanguard.
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