Fairness in crossrides (a note to alice)

HugeMcLargeTall wrote:

@Saraqael

your on a crossride hating forum, resistance is futile!

Oh, sorry, ma´am, I´ll behave.
BAN CROSSRIDES, ALLOW SKILLFUL ENVIRONMENT!!!
Well, I play spike brothers, and I fear the moment when people start playing crossrides in our store(well, there is one, who bought 4 the ends. He had never spent so much money on 3 cards. But he did this time. Why? Coz he wanted to have them coz they are powerful.)
I don´t play competitively, and I guess I will never do. I play to have fun, to meet new people, to get friends. I don´t care if there is some powercard, whichs owns everyone. I will just take it as a reason that spending money doesn´t mean being unbeatable.

That's fine for you, but you should realize CRs imbalance the game. A game won't last unless it can keep profitable, and with all the money for high level, aka the money attracting and making level, sitting on Set 5 cards new cards just lose Bushiroad money since newer product doesn't compare.

Hope your locals keeps balanced. I know the closest one to me has quickly devolved into Dragonic Overlord, The End decks and not much else.

Chestnut_Rice wrote:

Saraqael wrote:

Klaus wrote:

Quote :

not everybody likes to play kagero :)
At this point for most non-kagero-players there were 2 possibilities. 1. They start to cry. 2. They move on and accept that kagero is the most powerful.
Nobody likes to play great nature, still this set bombed, quite unexpected :S

So according to you if I wanted to play competitively with something not using a CR, I should just quit? Great business plan for Bushiroad to follow for sure.

no, no, just wait for bushiroad releasing crossrides for every clan. :)
Limit Breaks were meant to counter cross rides. Still everybody complains about crossrides.

Yes because the solution to blatant power creep is more blatant power creep.

edit: I just realized you probably wouldn't understand my sarcasm so here is what I meant to say: This is like a general telling the people of a country "we can prevent the death of our soldiers if we just use more soldiers for this mission".

Well, i did understand. I don´t understand many words and I can´t express myself very clearly, still, I get the messages. That´s also the reason why they start releasing break rides. I mean, c´mon, +10000, that´s just so powerful, they can´t be weaker than crossrides! (well, sarcasm. Seems like I have to announce it everytime, coz nobody understands my english :S )
Just a little group of players cares about balance and possibilities. Most players look at the power. This gets even attractive to ygo players When u sell a new set, u have to offer sth special, which is most of the time some overpowered new card.

Klaus wrote:

That's fine for you, but you should realize CRs imbalance the game. A game won't last unless it can keep profitable, and with all the money for high level, aka the money attracting and making level, sitting on Set 5 cards new cards just lose Bushiroad money since newer product doesn't compare.

Hope your locals keeps balanced. I know the closest one to me has quickly devolved into Dragonic Overlord, The End decks and not much else.

It´s the same like with f2p games. Why are some games extremely successful and get lots of money although they don´t charge big money for every tiny thing. Most companies don´t understand. They earn a lot of money at the start but wonder when they lose money after a couple of months. Instead of making little steps they take big steps, which however ruins everything. Companies are greedy. They can´t wait for long. sorry for offtopic.

Saraqael wrote:

HugeMcLargeTall wrote:

@Saraqael

your on a crossride hating forum, resistance is futile!

Oh, sorry, ma´am, I´ll behave.
BAN CROSSRIDES, ALLOW SKILLFUL ENVIRONMENT!!!
Well, I play spike brothers, and I fear the moment when people start playing crossrides in our store(well, there is one, who bought 4 the ends. He had never spent so much money on 3 cards. But he did this time. Why? Coz he wanted to have them coz they are powerful.)
I don´t play competitively, and I guess I will never do. I play to have fun, to meet new people, to get friends. I don´t care if there is some powercard, whichs owns everyone. I will just take it as a reason that spending money doesn´t mean being unbeatable.

lol ma'am

We're not saying you can't have fun. It's a card game. I'd hope you're having fun with it. But fun is subjective whereas probability crunching and planning around key columns (be they 16k or 18k) is more factual. And some people's idea of fun is using the most boring but effective deck and winning with it over and over.

"Not unbeatable" isn't really a positive statement. It's like saying "hammering a nail with my face isn't impossible". It's still painful and consistently so.

i honestly don't see a reason to complain about crossrides. there balanced as long as cards like ezel exsist

specrtalduke9387 wrote:

i honestly don't see a reason to complain about crossrides. there balanced as long as cards like ezel exsist

>Ezel balanced CRs
>Thinking Ezel is as powerful as a constant 13k wall to overcome

I'm done.

specrtalduke9387 wrote:

i honestly don't see a reason to complain about crossrides. there balanced as long as cards like ezel exsist

The problem with this is that it's not your VG that has problems hitting cross rides, it's your RG columns. It's quite difficult to put as much pressure on a 13k body than on an 11k body with anything but the vanguard. Most of the time, this means hitting 18k with your rearguard columns since that is the highest magic that many tribes can make with RG columns. It would be another thing if 23k rearguard columns would be possible for most clans, but as it stands it's pretty rare for even some VG's in some tribes to hit 23k with their appropriate booster. Whereas 21k is much more manageable to hit for both VG's and some RG columns.

What I'm getting at with this is that for those columns that can't hit 18k, then every draw trigger or 5k in your hand can block an attack on the VG unless they get a trigger, that's a big problem for the opponent. The amount of cards that are saved through the game adds up to a significant advantage for the cross ride player.

For more information you can look up Alice's post since she uses things like numbers and logic as well to support this in a fairly good (and long) read.

Klaus wrote:

>Thinking Ezel is as powerful as a constant 13k wall to overcome[/color]

I'm done.

I'm going to touch that 10k vanguard so hard.

Reijy is the true crossride killer, just saying. Your rearguards don't even have to hit the vanguard at all! Shame it's so inconsistent :V

Also, I don't think there is a clan that can hit 23k with their rearguard columns consistently. Dark Irregular's can do it but that is only with Doreen after soul charging at least twice in a turn, as well as with Witching Hour Bike, but you want that behind your Vanguard.

No.
/thread

Saraqael wrote:

At least it gives you the possibility to react to cross ride. They won´t be "fixed". Bushiroad´s reaction to crossrides was introducing limit break, breakrides and even more crossrides. This card is just a suggestion. Removing cards from soul would be too powerful and screw pale moon up. Crossrides wouldn´t be fixed. Conditions for this effect are still flexible. Some clans could soulblast 2 instead.

BTW: Sorry for my english, I´m no Americano, haha :)

Why in the 800 fucks are you making a suggestion like this to us and not Bushiroad then? If your argument is to add a new card to the game to fix them, and rebuttal is that creates more problems and doesn't even solve the original, so edit the card; and you think that's not good enough because Bushiroad won't do it, then go tell Bushiroad. Otherwise stop moving the goalpost.

Saraqael wrote:

Stronger cards are a reason to buy booster. If they just release different card, nobody will buy. There would be no "WOW-I need this".

Most people left Yugioh for this reason. Also I've been proving over and over with my custom cards that people don't actually care about more powerful cards, all they want are new and unique ways to play the game. Childish mindset people who think it's great to have overpowered cards in games aren't people who leave games that are balanced. But people who don't have that mindset do leave unbalanced games, as we saw with the mas exodus of players quitting Vanguard when Set 5 was released in English. Right now there are a ton of players just sitting on standby waiting for broken cards to get restricted or banned. Bushiroad was massively stupid to release Set 5 so quickly. They obviously had plenty of other non-broken ideas that we could see emerging in Sets 6, 7, 8, partially 9, and partially 10. I'll be willing to bet they have some non-broken ideas in 11 too. Releasing problematic broken cards so early stagnated Japan's meta for a solid year, causing every other release to be a financial failure. Bushiroad entered the arms race with broken cards way too early (and I don't even believe it has to be done). Someone who advocates broken cards being in a game eventually, I don't have to argue with because that takes a long time. But advocating early brokenness in a game's life span when the company clearly still has new and unique ideas that can sell it and keep people interested? FUCK RIGHT OFF.

By the way, it's less than three weeks since their release, and people are already getting bored of this meta and the crossrides.

And start spelling out the word "you". No one can take someone who replaces word with single letters seriously. I don't care if you don't speak English natively, there's no excuse for that.

Here's the problem that I've seen you have in this thread, as I read your replies: You believe that the person playing should be wholly catered to through their ego and their random biased sense of what "fun" means. But fun is a two-way street in competitive games. If you actually go study game design, one of the first things you learn about multiplayer is that for every strategy you give one player, you must also make that strategy fun for both players. It has to be fun to play the strategy and have it played against you. They teach you not to just give some guy an overpowered weapon or card or whatever because that's going to make the game non-fun for the person having to deal with it. This goes for all games ever, and is why a lot of games are perfectly symmetrical like Chess, Go, Stratego, etc. Card games have a hard time keeping this principle alive because they have to balance the ability to change the game pieces with the pieces remaining mostly at the same power level. Imagine for a moment that someone introduced into Chess, the "Dragon" piece. It can move anywhere on the board via teleportation and can capture any piece except the King. You're able to customize your chess board with this piece if you want. Now you're stuck. If you're a traditional chess player that likes all the fun of strategizing in the game, you're forced to run this shitty overpowered Dragon piece or start losing. Regardless if you like how it looks, how it plays, or agree with the ethos of that decision. If you don't run it, you get to constantly lose games and feel horrible.

That's exactly what it's like for someone on the other end of crossrides.

specrtalduke9387 wrote:

i honestly don't see a reason to complain about crossrides. there balanced as long as cards like ezel exsist

Congrats. You just won the "Dumbest Thing Said In this Thread" award. When Klaus refuses to dialogue with you, you know you screwed up.

Yu-gi-oh is still the most popular card game and their community is way bigger than vanguard's. If most people would care about balance nobody would play yu-gi-oh‚ but that's not the case.

Saraqael wrote:

Yu-gi-oh is still the most popular card game and their community is way bigger than vanguard's. If most people would care about balance nobody would play yu-gi-oh‚ but that's not the case.

It takes time for a popular card game to die. People have been leaving yugioh since Vanguard came out.

Stop using fallacies. This just looks pathetic now. You haven't even addressed any of the valid points.

Even if you're right about people wanting imbalanced cards (and I do not concede that), you haven't made a single argument for why it's acceptable behavior. Other than the typical appeal to popularity fallacy.

Ur points aren‘t proven either. Just a small group thinks that crossride ruins the game and at least in Germany the vanguard community grows. Nobody left in my shop. Community in Munich is growing‚ not shrinking.

And complaining about cross rides won't change anything . They will restrict the end. That's it. The end is meta‚ crossrides in general aren't.

Saraqael. Your constant posting of one or more replies at a time suggests that you aren't thinking your replies through, as well as just making the forum looking like a mess.

Alice actually does have a huge thing, somewhere, explaining without doubt why Cross-Rides are broken with pretty clear-cut evidence.

Why are u even complain about my writing habits?
I never said they aren't. However‚ they don't seem broken to the most.
I give up on this discussion. It's leading to nothing. U can complain about crossrides. I am going to enjoy this game.

They don't seem broken because people apparently don't get them. How to play them, or how to counter them.

You included, apparently.

Saraqael wrote:

Why are u even complain about my writing habits?
I never said they aren't. However‚ they don't seem broken to the most.
I give up on this discussion. It's leading to nothing. U can complain about crossrides. I am going to enjoy this game.

Test-play them in a vacuum (play against yourself, so you don't have to factor in difference of player skill). Play 50-ish games with a standard non-crossride deck. You'll see the problem even after going 10-15 rounds. You'll be losing a lot more than winning, but keep playing until you reach 50-60 games. Keep track of all your wins-losses. If their numbers and arguments don't convince you, I hope the results of actual testing will. Though, I have my doubts you will actually bother with this...

^That is what I did and what ultimately convinced me.

Alice wrote:

Saraqael wrote:

At least it gives you the possibility to react to cross ride. They won´t be "fixed". Bushiroad´s reaction to crossrides was introducing limit break, breakrides and even more crossrides. This card is just a suggestion. Removing cards from soul would be too powerful and screw pale moon up. Crossrides wouldn´t be fixed. Conditions for this effect are still flexible. Some clans could soulblast 2 instead.

BTW: Sorry for my english, I´m no Americano, haha :)

Why in the 800 fucks are you making a suggestion like this to us and not Bushiroad then? If your argument is to add a new card to the game to fix them, and rebuttal is that creates more problems and doesn't even solve the original, so edit the card; and you think that's not good enough because Bushiroad won't do it, then go tell Bushiroad. Otherwise stop moving the goalpost.

Saraqael wrote:

Stronger cards are a reason to buy booster. If they just release different card, nobody will buy. There would be no "WOW-I need this".

Most people left Yugioh for this reason. Also I've been proving over and over with my custom cards that people don't actually care about more powerful cards, all they want are new and unique ways to play the game. Childish mindset people who think it's great to have overpowered cards in games aren't people who leave games that are balanced. But people who don't have that mindset do leave unbalanced games, as we saw with the mas exodus of players quitting Vanguard when Set 5 was released in English. Right now there are a ton of players just sitting on standby waiting for broken cards to get restricted or banned. Bushiroad was massively stupid to release Set 5 so quickly. They obviously had plenty of other non-broken ideas that we could see emerging in Sets 6, 7, 8, partially 9, and partially 10. I'll be willing to bet they have some non-broken ideas in 11 too. Releasing problematic broken cards so early stagnated Japan's meta for a solid year, causing every other release to be a financial failure. Bushiroad entered the arms race with broken cards way too early (and I don't even believe it has to be done). Someone who advocates broken cards being in a game eventually, I don't have to argue with because that takes a long time. But advocating early brokenness in a game's life span when the company clearly still has new and unique ideas that can sell it and keep people interested? FUCK RIGHT OFF.

By the way, it's less than three weeks since their release, and people are already getting bored of this meta and the crossrides.

And start spelling out the word "you". No one can take someone who replaces word with single letters seriously. I don't care if you don't speak English natively, there's no excuse for that.

Here's the problem that I've seen you have in this thread, as I read your replies: You believe that the person playing should be wholly catered to through their ego and their random biased sense of what "fun" means. But fun is a two-way street in competitive games. If you actually go study game design, one of the first things you learn about multiplayer is that for every strategy you give one player, you must also make that strategy fun for both players. It has to be fun to play the strategy and have it played against you. They teach you not to just give some guy an overpowered weapon or card or whatever because that's going to make the game non-fun for the person having to deal with it. This goes for all games ever, and is why a lot of games are perfectly symmetrical like Chess, Go, Stratego, etc. Card games have a hard time keeping this principle alive because they have to balance the ability to change the game pieces with the pieces remaining mostly at the same power level. Imagine for a moment that someone introduced into Chess, the "Dragon" piece. It can move anywhere on the board via teleportation and can capture any piece except the King. You're able to customize your chess board with this piece if you want. Now you're stuck. If you're a traditional chess player that likes all the fun of strategizing in the game, you're forced to run this shitty overpowered Dragon piece or start losing. Regardless if you like how it looks, how it plays, or agree with the ethos of that decision. If you don't run it, you get to constantly lose games and feel horrible.

That's exactly what it's like for someone on the other end of crossrides.

specrtalduke9387 wrote:

i honestly don't see a reason to complain about crossrides. there balanced as long as cards like ezel exsist

Congrats. You just won the "Dumbest Thing Said In this Thread" award. When Klaus refuses to dialogue with you, you know you screwed up.

wow insult me why don't you. no wonder people with actual skill don't respect you. this is not a troll this is straight up fact. if you have any respect for this game and understand the basic knowledge of cg's in general then listen to what i'm about to say. EVERY CARD HAS A WEAKNESS!!!!! that means even the crossrides. Dragonic Overlord, The End has to hit to have any kind of inpact on the fight in general. pbo has to have rearguards to do much of anything that makes you say oh crap. so if you play you cards correctly then you'll be fine in the match up. i beat both decks with a quote "Generic Spectral Duke with non-optimal triggers and grade 3s." all due to the fact that i saw the weakness of the crossrides and concentrated on that aspect. it takes skill to out wit your opponent in chess so any good chess player can beat said dragon piece just due to the fact that the other player will make mistakes and the other chess player will see it and mess them up for it.

Quote :

Dragonic Overlord, The End has to hit to have any kind of inpact on the fight in general

Stopped Reading.

Also no, Dragonic Overlord The End has no weakness to speak of no matter how minuscule. It simply don't exist.

The End doesn't have to hit to have an impact on the fight. The threat of his effect going off already changes how an opponent must play against him. His 13k defense already impacts how they must set up their field.

to support my reason even though he's 13k most decks are able to make 14k collums so that argument is invalid. and also the only way Dragonic Overlord, The End get's his hand advantage is by hitting period. he's made to apply more pressure to guard him rather than the rear guards. Dragonic Overlord, The End's weakness is the ability to guard. if you can sucessfully guard his attacks then what the hell are you worried about seriously. as long as you can get over him and guard him (hit n move) you'll be fine in the Dragonic Overlord, The End match up.