Let's talk about spousal abuse in Vanguard (The uniting of two peoples)

Needlessly long is debatable, I write exactly the length I feel comfortable writing.

I'll drop it though since there's really no point in continuing. If or when BT05 hits, we can all see whether or not I was vindicated in my expectations and statements. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize then.

Just a note, if you are going by the results, Oracles would probably be Tier 2. Tsuku only has 3 spaces in total of the 28 and Coco only has 2 opposed to the 6 of Alfred and 7 of Ji Endo.

3XXXDDD wrote:

Just a note, if you are going by the results, Oracles would probably be Tier 2. Tsuku only has 3 spaces in total of the 28 and Coco only has 2 opposed to the 6 of Alfred and 7 of Ji Endo.

Okay, that actually is a fair point. Granted that still puts them on a level above basically everything else.

Also I thought there was a Majesty Lord or two in those results?

3 Majesty Lord Blasters.

3XXXDDD wrote:

3 Majesty Lord Blasters.

Yeah, that's what I thought. And I believe the remaining spaces were Gold Paladin.

Alright, my apologies. In light of looking at my own data more carefully, Oracles probably are best described as higher-end Tier 2. They're still, like, a competitive thing though, which is my broader point. It's not unusual for them to show up as winners.

Golds only had 3 spaces total. 2 Dukes and 1 Garmore. But yeah like I was saying CRs are Tier 1 and OTT/Golds are Tier 2. Zeal being T2 is more of an observation of its performance and capabilities rather than simple end result data.

ScarletWeather wrote:

They're still, like, a competitive thing though, which is my broader point. It's not unusual for them to show up as winners.

This seems like a bit of a non-point since I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

Wow this was actually a great read Alice :).

I don't really have much to say in regards to the topics, I don't want to use Crossrides - Though Farah for Pale Moon does look kind of interesting... As a user of Novas and PM, I don't want this game to become a crossride fest. I don't run Beast Deity for Novas, nor do I want to. I'm BANKING that the Raizer series can be competitive with Crossrides in some way/shape/form. If not I don't know what I'm going to do. Like you mentioned, its hard getting new players to join because they don't want to spend the money to build something just to have it crushed in 2 months. Im in a similar boat, I started getting into Vanguard the money after Bt06 was released and did everything I could to construct a decent GP deck. But even then, ideas get crushed, opinions changed and so many things effect how we play the game.

You can play with us. This community will have them banned so you can enjoy all of the inferior cards.

Awesomsauce. Brb making a Gran Blue deck with 2 crits.

Alice wrote:

Golds only had 3 spaces total. 2 Dukes and 1 Garmore. But yeah like I was saying CRs are Tier 1 and OTT/Golds are Tier 2. Zeal being T2 is more of an observation of its performance and capabilities rather than simple end result data.

The funny thing is whether it's a higher tier than Great Daiyuusha or not, I expect Zeal to show up before it does in tournament listings.

If you'll permit me, something that occurred to me and should have faster is that the one thing I forgot to calculate is that to a degree, The End is bad because it actually shuts out the other crossrides. It's more cost-effective to build, more generally powerful, and just a better bargain all around. So if you're bringing another deck, you actually have incentive at this point to run things that aren't a crossride, because then your deck is doing something significantly different than what The End is doing.

And to a degree I think that'd basically be what JP meta is always going to look like. We'll get one, two top "crossride" decks in any given format, and then you get all the non-crossride decks which still perform well, or adequately, against them.

Quote :

This seems like a bit of a non-point since I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

Partially because of the company I keep, I associate assigning a lower tier automatically with it being abnormal for something to top. Which, well, it isn't at this point. I'm also kind of bugged that JP meta keeps, no matter how accurate the assessment is, being framed as "crossrides and nothing else" when it's more like "the best crossride"/"The other decks which can beat the best crossride". It's meta/anti-meta, as it were. Even English VG would have that, but the 'biggest' decks in English VG don't really have anything in the cardpool you could call an anti-meta against them, so your best bet is to just build the optimal deck of whatever you happen to fancy and charge them.

Am I wrong in thinking that the Raizers are going to be one of the best options for facing crossrides?

WingZero wrote:

Am I wrong in thinking that the Raizers are going to be one of the best options for facing crossrides?

It would be helpful if you explained your reasoning.

There really isnt much to it, just that on average, every crossride will have 13k Power, while Perfect Raizer has 11k. So defensively, it'll be just like every other 11k Vanguard, but offensively, because of its effects, it should be able to generate enough power though Raizers in the soul to hit for large numbers that will hopefully require the other person to use a decent number of cards to guard. Basically my thinking is get at least 4 Raizers in the soul and thus create a 30k Column with a Critical 2. No major thoughts on this yet, it doesn't have the ability to boost multiple units, attack multiple units or any of that other jazz, but 11k is the highest you can go for a none Crossride Vanguard, but it has massive potential for offense. :/

WingZero wrote:

There really isnt much to it, just that on average, every crossride will have 13k Power, while Perfect Raizer has 11k. So defensively, it'll be just like every other 11k Vanguard, but offensively, because of its effects, it should be able to generate enough power though Raizers in the soul to hit for large numbers that will hopefully require the other person to use a decent number of cards to guard. Basically my thinking is get at least 4 Raizers in the soul and thus create a 30k Column with a Critical 2. No major thoughts on this yet, it doesn't have the ability to boost multiple units, attack multiple units or any of that other jazz, but 11k is the highest you can go for a none Crossride Vanguard, but it has massive potential for offense. :/

I'm just worried that getting those Raizers in the soul (if you don't manage to ride them), may be too heavy a minus when facing a crossride.

Well, Perfect Raizers effect is that "[AUTO]:When this unit is placed on (VC), put all your rear-guards with "Raizer" in their card name into your soul."



Therefore, even if you don't get a single ride off featuring a raizer, you still have the ability to call them then Ride Perfect Raizer, as well as ride Perfect Raizer on Perfect Raizer, in wich cause his effect would also claim more Raizers from the rear guards.



One thing Im confused about is... do cards like Battleraizer and Turboraizer count? They're all one word... If not then there are 5 Raizers, if they do, 8.



Perfect Raizer
High Powered Raizer Custom
Raizer Custom
Minimum Raizer
Turboraizer
Battleraizer
Burst Raizer
Transraizer

WingZero wrote:

Well, Perfect Raizers effect is that "[AUTO]:When this unit is placed on (VC), put all your rear-guards with "Raizer" in their card name into your soul."



Therefore, even if you don't get a single ride off featuring a raizer, you still have the ability to call them then Ride Perfect Raizer, as well as ride Perfect Raizer on Perfect Raizer, in wich cause his effect would also claim more Raizers from the rear guards.



One thing Im confused about is... do cards like Battleraizer and Turboraizer count? They're all one word... If not then there are 5 Raizers, if they do, 8.



Perfect Raizer
High Powered Raizer Custom
Raizer Custom
Minimum Raizer
Turboraizer
Battleraizer
Burst Raizer
Transraizer

Yes I am aware of his effect. You do realize losing cards of the field and moving them into the soul is a minus, right?

Here's the problem with the Perfect Raizer vs. crossride thing.

Perfect Raizer, as a decktype, has one really huge draw- you can have a massive centerline with a +critical skill, and basically never have to worry about your rear guard being low. Your center line will always pressure 2+ cards, so even one other column focusing on the rear guard will keep you at status quo for as long as you need to be. Half-columns or poor columns can pressure two rear guards and guaranteed get you ahead. And that's, of course, assuming your opponent can guard your center line with two cards every single time. Even with four in deck, they're not always gonna have Perfect Guard.

Majesty Lord Blaster has that same quality for its central unit, does it for less set up, and allows for more ability to replenish resources, in addition to having the ability to use things like Exculpate or Soul Saver Dragon as surprise late-game drops to punish opponents who don't have enough resources to survive a tactical nuke.

If you're a competitive player, which of the two decks are you more likely to run?

@Meeb Yes, I do. But I'm looking at it as "Short term loss, long term gain".



@Scarlett While yes this does make sense, as someone who doesn't want to use Crossrides and sees a strong option with Perfect Raizer that involves there favourite clan and even their favourite card, and given the example you just laid out, It seems that Perfect Raizer may be a decent idea to compete against crossrides

Well yeah, the thing is you can theoretically build... just about anything with a big enough support base to play against a crossride though. In fact the thing with crossrides is that they actually can't force everything down to stage one- as long as a deck can hit stage two with one column against the Vanguard and send rear guards to attack rear guards early enough into the game/with enough resources on hand, you can theoretically eventually run down the clock on their hand. It's just that some decks are naturally better at it than others. Like, way more naturally.

Right now Perfect Raizer is an insanely fun deck, but it's not really what I'd consider anti-crossride. Its central point isn't really presented with significant problems by them, but it's outclassed in a lot of other areas.

hmm, fair enough. But seeing as my favourite clans to run are Novas and Pale Moon. This seems like a pretty logical choice. However, I do agree Perfect Raizer is not Anti-Crossride, I was just wondering if it was competitive against crossrides.



Also, Do Battleraizer, Turboraizer and Transraizer count as Raizers?

WingZero wrote:

hmm, fair enough. But seeing as my favourite clans to run are Novas and Pale Moon. This seems like a pretty logical choice. However, I do agree Perfect Raizer is not Anti-Crossride, I was just wondering if it was competitive against crossrides.



Also, Do Battleraizer, Turboraizer and Transraizer count as Raizers?

Yes.

Honestly I'd say if you want to try it, go ahead. The deck faces the same challenges basically everything else faces against crossrides, but it at least has a central point of its strategy which isn't often compromised.

Good I like the sounds of it, and the basic deck challenges(Flaws) are what I'm pretty well used to, that being poor hand more often then not and other things :P Okay



Also, Im so happy that Nova Grapplers are getting a Raizer thats a critical trigger XD

ScarletWeather wrote:

Here's the problem with the Perfect Raizer vs. crossride thing.

Perfect Raizer, as a decktype, has one really huge draw- you can have a massive centerline with a +critical skill, and basically never have to worry about your rear guard being low. Your center line will always pressure 2+ cards, so even one other column focusing on the rear guard will keep you at status quo for as long as you need to be. Half-columns or poor columns can pressure two rear guards and guaranteed get you ahead. And that's, of course, assuming your opponent can guard your center line with two cards every single time. Even with four in deck, they're not always gonna have Perfect Guard.

Majesty Lord Blaster has that same quality for its central unit, does it for less set up, and allows for more ability to replenish resources, in addition to having the ability to use things like Exculpate or Soul Saver Dragon as surprise late-game drops to punish opponents who don't have enough resources to survive a tactical nuke.

If you're a competitive player, which of the two decks are you more likely to run?

THIS

Majesty has:
Permacrit sooner and more reliably (Wingal Brave)
3 stages against Crossrides
Palamedes
Soul Saver Dragon / Exculpate nukes
12k defense, making it a Crossride

Perfect Raizer has:
Permacrit late or unreliably (uncosted) or reliably (costed for advantage)
3 stages against Crossrides
11k defense making it the status quo of the original meta before CRs.

Clearly MLB is the dominant strategy here. Though Perfect Raizer is fucking cool.

Make sure we keep the discussion about things like this, you know meta stuff like the OP is

See, I know Majesty has the advantage, its kind of obvious. I'm just glad to know that the deck I want to run is a decent choice to face off against Crossrides(Not that it counters)